1 00:00:08,870 --> 00:00:04,730 on this episode of skeptico 2 00:00:10,250 --> 00:00:08,880 show about changing someone's mind what 3 00:00:13,450 --> 00:00:10,260 are you doing changing someone's mind 4 00:00:20,390 --> 00:00:13,460 can you buy me 20 seconds 5 00:00:26,750 --> 00:00:23,990 and how it almost never works 6 00:00:29,390 --> 00:00:26,760 much like me before I had this crisis 7 00:00:30,950 --> 00:00:29,400 you could not engage me in a 8 00:00:32,389 --> 00:00:30,960 conversation on this stuff and you can't 9 00:00:34,010 --> 00:00:32,399 force people to be interested in things 10 00:00:36,350 --> 00:00:34,020 they're not interested in I find myself 11 00:00:38,389 --> 00:00:36,360 frustrated sometimes that I get 12 00:00:40,729 --> 00:00:38,399 confronted with these extremely limited 13 00:00:43,790 --> 00:00:40,739 frankly lazy explanations about 14 00:00:46,130 --> 00:00:43,800 materialism from other scientists and 15 00:00:48,229 --> 00:00:46,140 you know I just try to think back to 16 00:00:49,670 --> 00:00:48,239 myself and you know I could present them 17 00:00:51,110 --> 00:00:49,680 a huge reading list but are they really 18 00:00:54,549 --> 00:00:51,120 going to go read it 19 00:00:57,170 --> 00:00:54,559 that first clip was from arrival 2016 20 00:01:01,430 --> 00:00:57,180 and the second one was from today's 21 00:01:03,470 --> 00:01:01,440 guest Dr Mona sabani who I think you're 22 00:01:06,230 --> 00:01:03,480 really gonna like as much as I do 23 00:01:09,350 --> 00:01:06,240 because she presents such an honest and 24 00:01:12,649 --> 00:01:09,360 open account of just how hard it is to 25 00:01:14,090 --> 00:01:12,659 change our own mind let alone change 26 00:01:16,550 --> 00:01:14,100 someone else's 27 00:01:19,190 --> 00:01:16,560 stick around it's a good one I think 28 00:01:21,230 --> 00:01:19,200 like it 29 00:01:23,270 --> 00:01:21,240 welcome to skeptica where we explore 30 00:01:26,090 --> 00:01:23,280 controversial science and spirituality 31 00:01:28,490 --> 00:01:26,100 with leading researchers thinkers and 32 00:01:31,490 --> 00:01:28,500 their critics I'm your host Alexa Caris 33 00:01:35,810 --> 00:01:31,500 and today we welcome Dr Mona sabani to 34 00:01:36,710 --> 00:01:35,820 skeptico to talk about her excellent new 35 00:01:38,929 --> 00:01:36,720 book 36 00:01:41,149 --> 00:01:38,939 proof of spiritual phenomena a 37 00:01:45,289 --> 00:01:41,159 neuroscientist discovery of the 38 00:01:46,429 --> 00:01:45,299 ineffable Mysteries of the universe by 39 00:01:50,569 --> 00:01:46,439 the way 40 00:01:53,389 --> 00:01:50,579 Dr Mona does the audible version of this 41 00:01:56,090 --> 00:01:53,399 too which I listen to and I always love 42 00:01:58,249 --> 00:01:56,100 that when the author does the narration 43 00:02:01,130 --> 00:01:58,259 because you just can't help but get 44 00:02:03,410 --> 00:02:01,140 different points of emphasis so kudos to 45 00:02:07,249 --> 00:02:03,420 you for doing that and it was a great 46 00:02:10,190 --> 00:02:07,259 listen really really enjoyed the book 47 00:02:12,350 --> 00:02:10,200 let me tell you a little bit about Dr 48 00:02:15,410 --> 00:02:12,360 sabani first of all 49 00:02:18,229 --> 00:02:15,420 super smart super duper smart pre-med 50 00:02:20,530 --> 00:02:18,239 UCSD right down the road from me PhD 51 00:02:23,750 --> 00:02:20,540 Neuroscience USC 52 00:02:25,910 --> 00:02:23,760 MacArthur Foundation post doc Fellowship 53 00:02:28,190 --> 00:02:25,920 kiss you don't know they don't just hand 54 00:02:31,130 --> 00:02:28,200 those out every day she got that 55 00:02:32,930 --> 00:02:31,140 Vanderbilt University following up on 56 00:02:34,309 --> 00:02:32,940 her research from what I understand her 57 00:02:36,050 --> 00:02:34,319 dissertation we won't really be talking 58 00:02:37,309 --> 00:02:36,060 a lot about it but I throw it out there 59 00:02:39,949 --> 00:02:37,319 because it might be interesting to some 60 00:02:43,190 --> 00:02:39,959 people looking at like neuro correlates 61 00:02:45,650 --> 00:02:43,200 and serial killers and law and what that 62 00:02:47,470 --> 00:02:45,660 might mean in nature versus nurture and 63 00:02:49,970 --> 00:02:47,480 all that good stuff 64 00:02:52,190 --> 00:02:49,980 neuroscientist you know who was already 65 00:02:55,250 --> 00:02:52,200 at that point doing this kind of 66 00:02:59,089 --> 00:02:55,260 crossover integrated stuff so 67 00:03:00,650 --> 00:02:59,099 the question that should be in your mind 68 00:03:05,990 --> 00:03:00,660 if you listen to skeptical if you know 69 00:03:10,670 --> 00:03:08,630 with this with this book that she's down 70 00:03:13,430 --> 00:03:10,680 this track she's going in the direction 71 00:03:16,729 --> 00:03:13,440 everyone wants her to go and then she 72 00:03:20,270 --> 00:03:16,739 writes this book with uh let me read to 73 00:03:23,690 --> 00:03:20,280 you the description of the book this is 74 00:03:25,850 --> 00:03:23,700 from her very excellent website and here 75 00:03:27,890 --> 00:03:25,860 is the description on the book with this 76 00:03:30,110 --> 00:03:27,900 book I tell the story of my 77 00:03:33,050 --> 00:03:30,120 transformation from a die-hard 78 00:03:36,190 --> 00:03:33,060 scientific materialist to an open-minded 79 00:03:40,190 --> 00:03:36,200 spiritual seeker and the excruciating 80 00:03:42,350 --> 00:03:40,200 identity crisis that ensued it's a book 81 00:03:45,110 --> 00:03:42,360 about my search for both scientific and 82 00:03:47,390 --> 00:03:45,120 personal proof in quotes that there is 83 00:03:49,550 --> 00:03:47,400 more to the cosmos an unseen Dimension 84 00:03:51,830 --> 00:03:49,560 to life that the mysteries of Human 85 00:03:53,449 --> 00:03:51,840 Experience go far beyond what the 86 00:03:55,550 --> 00:03:53,459 present scientific Paradigm can 87 00:03:58,570 --> 00:03:55,560 comprehend it leaves open the 88 00:04:01,550 --> 00:03:58,580 possibility of a participatory 89 00:04:05,210 --> 00:04:01,560 meaningful universe 90 00:04:07,670 --> 00:04:05,220 awesome awesome stuff thank you so much 91 00:04:09,589 --> 00:04:07,680 for joining me Dr sabani it's great to 92 00:04:12,530 --> 00:04:09,599 have you here thank you so much for 93 00:04:17,150 --> 00:04:12,540 having me I'm really excited to be here 94 00:04:19,849 --> 00:04:17,160 so tell us more about you know and 95 00:04:22,210 --> 00:04:19,859 there's so many places we could start 96 00:04:25,550 --> 00:04:22,220 you know you kind of hint at some things 97 00:04:28,430 --> 00:04:25,560 like this existential crisis kind of 98 00:04:30,830 --> 00:04:28,440 thing which the book documents in a way 99 00:04:32,870 --> 00:04:30,840 in terms of just what it's like to be 100 00:04:34,189 --> 00:04:32,880 hardcore materialist scientists doing 101 00:04:35,810 --> 00:04:34,199 everything you're supposed to do and 102 00:04:38,270 --> 00:04:35,820 then doing that 103 00:04:40,909 --> 00:04:38,280 tell people maybe just in a nutshell of 104 00:04:43,129 --> 00:04:40,919 that whole experience 105 00:04:45,650 --> 00:04:43,139 these things happen to us I guess but uh 106 00:04:49,070 --> 00:04:45,660 yeah I was I was I did all the things I 107 00:04:51,830 --> 00:04:49,080 was supposed to do and had a job that I 108 00:04:53,810 --> 00:04:51,840 that I liked and I thought it was pretty 109 00:04:56,090 --> 00:04:53,820 good I mean sort of scientists doing 110 00:04:58,610 --> 00:04:56,100 interesting research but for whatever 111 00:05:00,710 --> 00:04:58,620 reason I wasn't very happy and like I 112 00:05:02,030 --> 00:05:00,720 started because after your PhD when 113 00:05:03,710 --> 00:05:02,040 you're working on your PhD you're very 114 00:05:05,629 --> 00:05:03,720 focused you know you're you're tired 115 00:05:07,070 --> 00:05:05,639 you're so busy you don't have a lot of 116 00:05:09,230 --> 00:05:07,080 time to think about the meaning of life 117 00:05:10,730 --> 00:05:09,240 and you you're Purpose Driven and then 118 00:05:13,010 --> 00:05:10,740 once that's over 119 00:05:17,270 --> 00:05:13,020 I think it like after doing a lot of 120 00:05:18,530 --> 00:05:17,280 reflection I think that uh the dip in 121 00:05:21,830 --> 00:05:18,540 meaning 122 00:05:24,529 --> 00:05:21,840 started happening after that and so I 123 00:05:27,529 --> 00:05:24,539 you know I tried to just focus on 124 00:05:30,409 --> 00:05:27,539 the work and what I was doing but after 125 00:05:32,090 --> 00:05:30,419 a while I would I would wake up and kind 126 00:05:33,590 --> 00:05:32,100 of just keep kept thinking found myself 127 00:05:36,529 --> 00:05:33,600 thinking what is the point of all of 128 00:05:39,290 --> 00:05:36,539 this like what like is this it like we 129 00:05:41,029 --> 00:05:39,300 just and even though I liked my work I 130 00:05:42,590 --> 00:05:41,039 still found myself thinking that and 131 00:05:44,450 --> 00:05:42,600 that was Troublesome to me because I 132 00:05:46,610 --> 00:05:44,460 thought for a long time you know you 133 00:05:49,430 --> 00:05:46,620 find the thing you're supposed to do 134 00:05:52,610 --> 00:05:49,440 you're gonna enjoy it you find a good 135 00:05:54,469 --> 00:05:52,620 job and it's all going to be great and 136 00:05:57,170 --> 00:05:54,479 then it kind of wasn't 137 00:05:58,790 --> 00:05:57,180 and um but the funny thing is I wasn't 138 00:06:01,670 --> 00:05:58,800 super aware of that I was sort of aware 139 00:06:04,550 --> 00:06:01,680 but I was in denial so it's weird 140 00:06:06,230 --> 00:06:04,560 um but then what happened was I the way 141 00:06:08,210 --> 00:06:06,240 that all of this other stuff came into 142 00:06:12,050 --> 00:06:08,220 my life and it all kind of converged you 143 00:06:14,570 --> 00:06:12,060 know in at one point in time was that so 144 00:06:17,510 --> 00:06:14,580 I'm Persian my cultural heritage is 145 00:06:19,730 --> 00:06:17,520 Persian my parents are from Iran and we 146 00:06:22,249 --> 00:06:19,740 have in our culture a practice of 147 00:06:23,330 --> 00:06:22,259 divination and we use coffee grounds I 148 00:06:26,210 --> 00:06:23,340 mean you can use anything you can use 149 00:06:28,550 --> 00:06:26,220 tarot but my grandmother used to use 150 00:06:29,990 --> 00:06:28,560 when she was alive would use coffee 151 00:06:32,029 --> 00:06:30,000 grounds and it's like this thicker kind 152 00:06:34,249 --> 00:06:32,039 of coffee it's often called Armenian 153 00:06:35,450 --> 00:06:34,259 Turkish or Greek coffee you drink it you 154 00:06:37,309 --> 00:06:35,460 leave the grounds in the cup flip it 155 00:06:39,050 --> 00:06:37,319 over it dries and there's pictures 156 00:06:41,629 --> 00:06:39,060 emerge and if you're lucky to have a 157 00:06:43,969 --> 00:06:41,639 reader they can look at it Intuit things 158 00:06:46,510 --> 00:06:43,979 and so my grandmother was apparently 159 00:06:49,850 --> 00:06:46,520 legendary I never got a reading because 160 00:06:53,090 --> 00:06:49,860 she passed away before I was a coffee 161 00:06:56,210 --> 00:06:53,100 drinking age with her and my my but my 162 00:06:57,529 --> 00:06:56,220 mother learned the skills and in my this 163 00:06:59,870 --> 00:06:57,539 was always going on in the background of 164 00:07:01,990 --> 00:06:59,880 our you know family parties and um just 165 00:07:04,189 --> 00:07:02,000 all the time in our house and I never 166 00:07:06,110 --> 00:07:04,199 registered it just it's just there you 167 00:07:07,610 --> 00:07:06,120 know never really thought about it until 168 00:07:08,809 --> 00:07:07,620 grad school and I started going home on 169 00:07:10,610 --> 00:07:08,819 the weekends to spend time with my 170 00:07:12,350 --> 00:07:10,620 parents my mom would make coffee for me 171 00:07:13,570 --> 00:07:12,360 and we'd have it together and then she 172 00:07:18,529 --> 00:07:13,580 would just flip it over and start 173 00:07:19,850 --> 00:07:18,539 reading and I remember thinking okay you 174 00:07:22,010 --> 00:07:19,860 know and it's my mom I'm not like I 175 00:07:24,890 --> 00:07:22,020 wasn't hostile towards her so I was like 176 00:07:26,629 --> 00:07:24,900 okay I'll just listen and whatever and 177 00:07:29,570 --> 00:07:26,639 over time I realized that the things 178 00:07:31,249 --> 00:07:29,580 that she said would come true and then I 179 00:07:32,629 --> 00:07:31,259 started taking notes you know because a 180 00:07:34,610 --> 00:07:32,639 good scientist so I was like let me just 181 00:07:36,770 --> 00:07:34,620 take notes maybe I'm remembering it um 182 00:07:38,270 --> 00:07:36,780 incorrectly or maybe I'm making a 183 00:07:40,370 --> 00:07:38,280 self-fulfilling prophecy so I started 184 00:07:41,089 --> 00:07:40,380 taking notes and I did this for over 10 185 00:07:44,089 --> 00:07:41,099 years 186 00:07:46,730 --> 00:07:44,099 and tracked it really carefully in our 187 00:07:48,950 --> 00:07:46,740 check now that is a scientist because 188 00:07:51,950 --> 00:07:48,960 Mona right you take notes we get that 189 00:07:54,290 --> 00:07:51,960 you took notes for 10 years 190 00:07:55,850 --> 00:07:54,300 and you're recording stuff down I mean 191 00:07:57,589 --> 00:07:55,860 that's that's pretty 192 00:07:59,629 --> 00:07:57,599 yeah I still have them 193 00:08:02,870 --> 00:07:59,639 I still do it actually I still write 194 00:08:04,129 --> 00:08:02,880 everything she says down so because let 195 00:08:06,710 --> 00:08:04,139 me just let me just interject something 196 00:08:10,189 --> 00:08:06,720 else because this is how the book starts 197 00:08:12,350 --> 00:08:10,199 like uh and but what I want to jump 198 00:08:15,770 --> 00:08:12,360 ahead and let people know is and it's so 199 00:08:18,290 --> 00:08:15,780 fantastic really about the book is that 200 00:08:19,490 --> 00:08:18,300 you're kind of leading us on this 201 00:08:21,290 --> 00:08:19,500 journey and I want to talk about how 202 00:08:24,529 --> 00:08:21,300 where that's coming from too because I 203 00:08:25,850 --> 00:08:24,539 gotta wonder if part of it for me part 204 00:08:28,129 --> 00:08:25,860 of because I have 205 00:08:30,890 --> 00:08:28,139 two girls and two boys and two of my 206 00:08:33,409 --> 00:08:30,900 girls are in college so they're they're 207 00:08:37,310 --> 00:08:33,419 closer in htu than they are to me let's 208 00:08:41,510 --> 00:08:37,320 fit in that way and I thought this is so 209 00:08:44,990 --> 00:08:41,520 this is so cool I would love my girls to 210 00:08:48,410 --> 00:08:45,000 read this because it's such a a Next 211 00:08:51,590 --> 00:08:48,420 Generation scientific very scientific 212 00:08:54,829 --> 00:08:51,600 woman and the perspective that you're 213 00:08:57,829 --> 00:08:54,839 bringing and the Really The Bravery to 214 00:08:59,570 --> 00:08:57,839 to to talk like this to talk like this 215 00:09:02,750 --> 00:08:59,580 which is what the book is about to say 216 00:09:05,150 --> 00:09:02,760 yeah I I I did have this existential 217 00:09:08,570 --> 00:09:05,160 crisis that we all have you know okay I 218 00:09:11,269 --> 00:09:08,580 had it and then I leaned on this thing 219 00:09:13,430 --> 00:09:11,279 that you're gonna think is like sounds 220 00:09:15,050 --> 00:09:13,440 kind of wacky and you even say when you 221 00:09:17,509 --> 00:09:15,060 are also because you're in this other 222 00:09:19,070 --> 00:09:17,519 world like you say you know you're you 223 00:09:21,290 --> 00:09:19,080 know your parents are from Iran you're 224 00:09:23,870 --> 00:09:21,300 but you're in this La Melting Pot and 225 00:09:25,130 --> 00:09:23,880 you're a Chelsea Handler La girl and 226 00:09:26,630 --> 00:09:25,140 you're very much that we can tell by 227 00:09:28,910 --> 00:09:26,640 reading the book but you're like 228 00:09:30,650 --> 00:09:28,920 integrating all this stuff in an attempt 229 00:09:32,889 --> 00:09:30,660 to resolve it from a scientific 230 00:09:36,230 --> 00:09:32,899 perspective because you're very legit 231 00:09:39,590 --> 00:09:36,240 neuroscientist and I think that's such a 232 00:09:41,690 --> 00:09:39,600 cool part of this story so I I want you 233 00:09:44,630 --> 00:09:41,700 to to pick up on the coffee grind 234 00:09:46,130 --> 00:09:44,640 reading but I mean and that's why I was 235 00:09:48,110 --> 00:09:46,140 kind of teasing a little bit about the 236 00:09:52,910 --> 00:09:48,120 10 years of notes I mean do you dive 237 00:09:55,490 --> 00:09:52,920 into this thing with just a ferocity of 238 00:09:58,070 --> 00:09:55,500 of this scientist that you are and 239 00:10:01,250 --> 00:09:58,080 you're immediately kind of hitting stuff 240 00:10:02,990 --> 00:10:01,260 that goes hey this doesn't fly with what 241 00:10:06,470 --> 00:10:03,000 I've been taught and I'm not going to 242 00:10:09,230 --> 00:10:06,480 let go right yeah and that's what you 243 00:10:11,329 --> 00:10:09,240 can do it's all I could do and I think 244 00:10:13,070 --> 00:10:11,339 for a while I ignored it right so it was 245 00:10:15,410 --> 00:10:13,080 like oh these readings 246 00:10:17,690 --> 00:10:15,420 um she's able to you know know things 247 00:10:19,130 --> 00:10:17,700 about the future and even she's even 248 00:10:21,410 --> 00:10:19,140 better at just the current situation 249 00:10:22,550 --> 00:10:21,420 like she could tell you about things 250 00:10:24,350 --> 00:10:22,560 going on in your life with the current 251 00:10:26,329 --> 00:10:24,360 situation with like incredible detail 252 00:10:28,310 --> 00:10:26,339 and I couldn't explain it with science 253 00:10:29,630 --> 00:10:28,320 they don't give you any framework to 254 00:10:31,550 --> 00:10:29,640 explain that 255 00:10:33,350 --> 00:10:31,560 um you know it goes against our our 256 00:10:36,590 --> 00:10:33,360 concepts of time and how it moves 257 00:10:38,269 --> 00:10:36,600 forward so I remember initially at the 258 00:10:40,009 --> 00:10:38,279 beginning of grad school I was kind of 259 00:10:42,230 --> 00:10:40,019 thinking about like oh how would this 260 00:10:43,910 --> 00:10:42,240 possibly work and I remember reading 261 00:10:45,470 --> 00:10:43,920 quantum physics papers and stuff but 262 00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:45,480 then grad school took off and I didn't 263 00:10:49,970 --> 00:10:48,720 have time for that anymore so I um you 264 00:10:51,829 --> 00:10:49,980 know I just did the best I could and 265 00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:51,839 lived in cognitive dissonance and them 266 00:10:57,170 --> 00:10:54,240 and cut them separate and 267 00:10:58,970 --> 00:10:57,180 um it's it's I took them seriously like 268 00:11:01,250 --> 00:10:58,980 if she said pick your you know like I 269 00:11:02,930 --> 00:11:01,260 may say in the book um she warned me 270 00:11:04,610 --> 00:11:02,940 about losing money I would be careful 271 00:11:06,470 --> 00:11:04,620 with my money then I would check my 272 00:11:08,329 --> 00:11:06,480 bills because she was usually right I 273 00:11:11,269 --> 00:11:08,339 couldn't really explain it but but it 274 00:11:12,769 --> 00:11:11,279 worked and I I kind of I mean it was 275 00:11:15,410 --> 00:11:12,779 just a part of life and not a big deal 276 00:11:17,569 --> 00:11:15,420 just a part of everything and then I had 277 00:11:19,610 --> 00:11:17,579 two big emotional events happened that 278 00:11:21,530 --> 00:11:19,620 were related to the coffee and then that 279 00:11:23,150 --> 00:11:21,540 was these were around the time of when I 280 00:11:24,829 --> 00:11:23,160 was kind you know like not feeling great 281 00:11:26,090 --> 00:11:24,839 about or waking up thinking what was the 282 00:11:28,130 --> 00:11:26,100 meaning of all this and that was the 283 00:11:30,590 --> 00:11:28,140 Tipping Point for all this so the first 284 00:11:32,930 --> 00:11:30,600 one was she kept seeing something in the 285 00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:32,940 cup that was for five six weeks in 286 00:11:35,870 --> 00:11:35,040 advance and my mom's always you know she 287 00:11:37,970 --> 00:11:35,880 actually 288 00:11:39,290 --> 00:11:37,980 now that she avoids bad news from the 289 00:11:41,870 --> 00:11:39,300 cup but she'll 290 00:11:43,250 --> 00:11:41,880 she'll you know Breeze over it quickly 291 00:11:44,930 --> 00:11:43,260 and just say don't worry about it too 292 00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:44,940 much I'm not always right you know 293 00:11:49,069 --> 00:11:47,040 whatever but this one she got very 294 00:11:51,769 --> 00:11:49,079 serious and she was like you know I 295 00:11:53,210 --> 00:11:51,779 wasn't gonna tell you she's like but it 296 00:11:55,490 --> 00:11:53,220 keeps coming up so I feel like I just 297 00:11:58,130 --> 00:11:55,500 need to warn you that you may be getting 298 00:12:00,290 --> 00:11:58,140 some bad news and and then she wouldn't 299 00:12:01,550 --> 00:12:00,300 tell me what it was and it was it was 300 00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:01,560 frustrating and then I lived like in 301 00:12:04,910 --> 00:12:03,360 Terror for five weeks like what's gonna 302 00:12:06,110 --> 00:12:04,920 what's gonna happen what am I gonna find 303 00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:06,120 out 304 00:12:11,870 --> 00:12:10,140 professors at USC that had helped me on 305 00:12:13,370 --> 00:12:11,880 one of my dissertation experiments was 306 00:12:16,130 --> 00:12:13,380 killed by one of the students in our 307 00:12:19,610 --> 00:12:16,140 program and it was devis obviously 308 00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:19,620 devastating but what creeped me out was 309 00:12:22,730 --> 00:12:21,839 that she had seen that and I think the 310 00:12:24,650 --> 00:12:22,740 difference 311 00:12:26,630 --> 00:12:24,660 was that it was it was a death right it 312 00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:26,640 was a life or death thing whereas all 313 00:12:30,050 --> 00:12:28,079 the things before that 314 00:12:32,389 --> 00:12:30,060 were you know like you might lose money 315 00:12:34,009 --> 00:12:32,399 you might I don't know you have a 316 00:12:36,889 --> 00:12:34,019 project at work or something this one 317 00:12:40,910 --> 00:12:36,899 was death and so for me it really shook 318 00:12:42,530 --> 00:12:40,920 me and I couldn't understand how the 319 00:12:45,650 --> 00:12:42,540 information about someone's death could 320 00:12:49,009 --> 00:12:45,660 be available beforehand and what that 321 00:12:51,230 --> 00:12:49,019 meant you know and I I kept thinking was 322 00:12:53,509 --> 00:12:51,240 is there such thing as fate or destiny I 323 00:12:55,129 --> 00:12:53,519 had never thought about that before 324 00:12:57,769 --> 00:12:55,139 um but I was like but if the information 325 00:12:59,750 --> 00:12:57,779 was available ahead of time is it 326 00:13:00,769 --> 00:12:59,760 possible that it was meant to be I don't 327 00:13:02,750 --> 00:13:00,779 know like I had all these kinds of 328 00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:02,760 thoughts but I didn't have time again I 329 00:13:05,810 --> 00:13:03,839 was busy I didn't have time to think 330 00:13:09,230 --> 00:13:05,820 about it and I was in grief for a while 331 00:13:11,870 --> 00:13:09,240 and so I didn't do anything and then and 332 00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:11,880 then a couple years later she saw this 333 00:13:16,009 --> 00:13:14,639 relationship coming into my life and um 334 00:13:18,050 --> 00:13:16,019 looked like it was going to be positive 335 00:13:21,470 --> 00:13:18,060 and good and it was it was fine it just 336 00:13:23,990 --> 00:13:21,480 but it ended and so I was like Mom you 337 00:13:25,850 --> 00:13:24,000 were wrong like it wasn't positive you 338 00:13:29,090 --> 00:13:25,860 know all right now I can see why it was 339 00:13:30,889 --> 00:13:29,100 positive in the long run but um and so 340 00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:30,899 that that one though and I always I 341 00:13:35,569 --> 00:13:34,079 think of it now as like um I had like a 342 00:13:37,250 --> 00:13:35,579 stool like and the legs were just being 343 00:13:39,590 --> 00:13:37,260 knocked out and that was the last leg of 344 00:13:41,449 --> 00:13:39,600 the stool that was it I was like done I 345 00:13:43,550 --> 00:13:41,459 was emotionally 346 00:13:44,750 --> 00:13:43,560 um like I just fell into a depression 347 00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:44,760 like I 348 00:13:50,269 --> 00:13:48,060 felt despair for the first time I had no 349 00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:50,279 hope or optimism for the future and I 350 00:13:53,150 --> 00:13:51,600 was just like I just didn't want to 351 00:13:55,310 --> 00:13:53,160 exist anymore because I was like I just 352 00:13:59,030 --> 00:13:55,320 don't understand why we have to do this 353 00:14:01,730 --> 00:13:59,040 and so it was dark like that for a long 354 00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:01,740 time and then then I finally 355 00:14:06,889 --> 00:14:03,480 was like 356 00:14:08,509 --> 00:14:06,899 um what is it about these readings 357 00:14:13,069 --> 00:14:08,519 um you know I wanted to look at that 358 00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:13,079 part of my story and see okay okay 359 00:14:16,970 --> 00:14:15,120 um what does it mean and is there any 360 00:14:18,829 --> 00:14:16,980 truth in this or did I make this you 361 00:14:20,930 --> 00:14:18,839 know did I create meaning was is 362 00:14:22,129 --> 00:14:20,940 neuroscience right what they taught us 363 00:14:23,569 --> 00:14:22,139 about how we create meaning out of 364 00:14:25,009 --> 00:14:23,579 everything in our brains did I do this 365 00:14:27,590 --> 00:14:25,019 to myself 366 00:14:29,690 --> 00:14:27,600 um and so then I started this um this 367 00:14:31,490 --> 00:14:29,700 you know Journey with initially started 368 00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:31,500 with my friends as a fund just for 369 00:14:34,550 --> 00:14:33,120 ourselves they were like we know this 370 00:14:36,410 --> 00:14:34,560 really good psychic she'll turn you away 371 00:14:38,810 --> 00:14:36,420 if she can't read your energy like if 372 00:14:41,689 --> 00:14:38,820 you want to try someone try someone else 373 00:14:43,250 --> 00:14:41,699 we'll take you so we started doing that 374 00:14:45,230 --> 00:14:43,260 um we would go together we'd switch 375 00:14:46,910 --> 00:14:45,240 notes to see if it was true or not 376 00:14:49,250 --> 00:14:46,920 because I never actually had readings 377 00:14:50,930 --> 00:14:49,260 from anyone else it was just my mom 378 00:14:54,350 --> 00:14:50,940 um so we did that for a while and we 379 00:14:56,389 --> 00:14:54,360 realized you know this is like me as a 380 00:14:58,970 --> 00:14:56,399 scientist I I remember they would say 381 00:15:00,170 --> 00:14:58,980 things that would be from my past for my 382 00:15:01,730 --> 00:15:00,180 childhood 383 00:15:02,990 --> 00:15:01,740 um with specific 384 00:15:05,569 --> 00:15:03,000 you know 385 00:15:07,129 --> 00:15:05,579 um uh like seven variables correct from 386 00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:07,139 this you know obscure thing from my 387 00:15:13,490 --> 00:15:10,079 childhood and I'd be sitting there like 388 00:15:16,069 --> 00:15:13,500 man like this is this is hard to brush 389 00:15:17,389 --> 00:15:16,079 off and I know we're supposed to like 390 00:15:18,889 --> 00:15:17,399 even as a scientist I was trying to be 391 00:15:20,269 --> 00:15:18,899 skeptical because I don't know these 392 00:15:21,829 --> 00:15:20,279 people I'm paying them so it's different 393 00:15:24,490 --> 00:15:21,839 it's different relationship than with my 394 00:15:27,530 --> 00:15:24,500 mom and I'm like but I just don't see 395 00:15:29,329 --> 00:15:27,540 how that could be guesswork like it's 396 00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:29,339 not vague you know people always oh my 397 00:15:33,230 --> 00:15:31,440 god I've spent so much time hearing all 398 00:15:35,689 --> 00:15:33,240 the criticisms and psychic readings 399 00:15:38,269 --> 00:15:35,699 obviously are not the best forum for to 400 00:15:39,650 --> 00:15:38,279 prove something scientifically but so it 401 00:15:43,310 --> 00:15:39,660 was just for fun it was just for us 402 00:15:45,769 --> 00:15:43,320 maybe maybe not I mean because as you 403 00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:45,779 take us on the journey in the book you 404 00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:48,000 know there's a lot to be said for 405 00:15:51,410 --> 00:15:50,220 mediumistic readings and then you know 406 00:15:54,050 --> 00:15:51,420 just let me interject something else 407 00:15:55,490 --> 00:15:54,060 because again you tell the story in an 408 00:15:57,650 --> 00:15:55,500 awesome way and I think it's very 409 00:16:00,410 --> 00:15:57,660 relatable but I want people to know that 410 00:16:02,990 --> 00:16:00,420 you then Dr you go as a scientist all 411 00:16:05,569 --> 00:16:03,000 the way so like you'd find your way to 412 00:16:09,710 --> 00:16:05,579 Dr Julie bishel's door at the winbridge 413 00:16:12,769 --> 00:16:09,720 Institute you go okay quintuple blind uh 414 00:16:15,230 --> 00:16:12,779 control old after death communication by 415 00:16:18,410 --> 00:16:15,240 a PhD in Pharmacology who knows how to 416 00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:18,420 run that and she comes up with four 417 00:16:24,050 --> 00:16:21,300 Sigma or whatever result that blows the 418 00:16:26,030 --> 00:16:24,060 doors off so it's it's you're constantly 419 00:16:27,710 --> 00:16:26,040 bouncing back and forth between like 420 00:16:31,009 --> 00:16:27,720 you're saying hey can I trust this 421 00:16:34,069 --> 00:16:31,019 reading and oh by the way there's this 422 00:16:35,750 --> 00:16:34,079 there's this evidence and again as you 423 00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:35,760 point out in the book folks I want you 424 00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:37,380 to understand you will get a lot out of 425 00:16:43,310 --> 00:16:39,839 this book if you're very science-minded 426 00:16:45,829 --> 00:16:43,320 it's great yeah yeah and I um so yeah it 427 00:16:49,490 --> 00:16:45,839 started like that for fun and then later 428 00:16:51,829 --> 00:16:49,500 I I did end up digging deep into the to 429 00:16:53,329 --> 00:16:51,839 the scientific literature which I didn't 430 00:16:54,650 --> 00:16:53,339 think existed otherwise I would have 431 00:16:55,850 --> 00:16:54,660 looked at that first but I just didn't 432 00:16:57,530 --> 00:16:55,860 even think that existed I thought 433 00:16:59,569 --> 00:16:57,540 there's no way no one has studied this 434 00:17:01,610 --> 00:16:59,579 because it's so outside of our purview 435 00:17:04,850 --> 00:17:01,620 like we don't learn about that and so 436 00:17:06,890 --> 00:17:04,860 I'd never bothered to look but um so I 437 00:17:10,610 --> 00:17:06,900 did that with my yeah I did that with my 438 00:17:13,689 --> 00:17:10,620 friends for a while and I was should I 439 00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:13,699 tell my Chelsea Handler story 440 00:17:20,990 --> 00:17:18,959 yes yes you're just you're just like so 441 00:17:23,870 --> 00:17:21,000 many of the rest of us you know what I 442 00:17:26,270 --> 00:17:23,880 mean yeah yeah please so we were going 443 00:17:29,030 --> 00:17:26,280 to these readings and we're you know it 444 00:17:31,730 --> 00:17:29,040 was very casual like not Forefront of my 445 00:17:33,890 --> 00:17:31,740 mind but I I wasn't listening to 446 00:17:35,330 --> 00:17:33,900 anything spiritual at the time and in 447 00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:35,340 the readings they they would say things 448 00:17:40,010 --> 00:17:38,280 to me like this is um uh like someone 449 00:17:41,570 --> 00:17:40,020 from your soul group or this is a karmic 450 00:17:42,830 --> 00:17:41,580 thing a past life thing and I didn't 451 00:17:43,669 --> 00:17:42,840 believe in any of that first of all I 452 00:17:44,990 --> 00:17:43,679 didn't even know what they were saying 453 00:17:46,730 --> 00:17:45,000 half the time I was like I would just 454 00:17:49,370 --> 00:17:46,740 write it down but I didn't know it's 455 00:17:50,450 --> 00:17:49,380 soul group or anything meant and I would 456 00:17:51,529 --> 00:17:50,460 and then I would just brush it off 457 00:17:52,970 --> 00:17:51,539 because I was like I don't believe in 458 00:17:55,610 --> 00:17:52,980 that so whatever 459 00:17:58,190 --> 00:17:55,620 um but I had heard it and so it kind of 460 00:18:00,409 --> 00:17:58,200 had planted a seat in my head and so I 461 00:18:02,510 --> 00:18:00,419 wasn't listening to anything spiritual 462 00:18:04,130 --> 00:18:02,520 um but I listened to I read Chelsea 463 00:18:05,990 --> 00:18:04,140 Handler's book life will be the death of 464 00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:06,000 me and then she had a podcast like a 465 00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:07,919 limited series podcast with a few 466 00:18:11,690 --> 00:18:10,080 episodes most of it was about uh the 467 00:18:13,909 --> 00:18:11,700 Enneagram and personality and therapy 468 00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:13,919 and stuff and then she had and one 469 00:18:19,010 --> 00:18:16,320 episode with Laurel and Jackson who's a 470 00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,020 psychic medium and I remember and 471 00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:21,360 Chelsea was a skeptic and so I was like 472 00:18:24,590 --> 00:18:22,640 what is this 473 00:18:26,750 --> 00:18:24,600 Laurel and Jackson why she have a 474 00:18:28,370 --> 00:18:26,760 psychic medium on her podcast 475 00:18:30,890 --> 00:18:28,380 um but it was like the podcast that 476 00:18:34,490 --> 00:18:30,900 changed my life um and so Lauren Lynn 477 00:18:36,529 --> 00:18:34,500 Jackson starts uh telling the the spirit 478 00:18:38,090 --> 00:18:36,539 describing that spiritual framework that 479 00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:38,100 the intuitives had mentioned and she's 480 00:18:42,289 --> 00:18:39,360 like oh we come to Earth to learn 481 00:18:43,730 --> 00:18:42,299 lessons and we have soul groups and um 482 00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:43,740 you know there's Karma and all this 483 00:18:47,810 --> 00:18:46,320 stuff and I just perked up and I was 484 00:18:49,610 --> 00:18:47,820 like oh my God this sounds familiar this 485 00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:49,620 is what and so I started writing it down 486 00:18:53,630 --> 00:18:51,780 so that I could you know look about look 487 00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:53,640 it up or think about it later 488 00:18:56,750 --> 00:18:54,960 um but I was like oh that's so weird do 489 00:18:58,250 --> 00:18:56,760 all psychics believe in this framework 490 00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:58,260 and I've never even you know I've heard 491 00:19:02,029 --> 00:18:59,760 of reincarnation but I didn't know that 492 00:19:04,970 --> 00:19:02,039 there was a whole framework behind it 493 00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:04,980 um and so so she got my attention there 494 00:19:08,210 --> 00:19:06,720 and then she mentioned the windbridge 495 00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:08,220 Institute because she had been certified 496 00:19:11,930 --> 00:19:11,280 by them and and been tested um they had 497 00:19:14,029 --> 00:19:11,940 done 498 00:19:15,409 --> 00:19:14,039 um EEG studies on her 499 00:19:16,850 --> 00:19:15,419 um so I you know made a note to look 500 00:19:19,070 --> 00:19:16,860 them up 501 00:19:21,470 --> 00:19:19,080 um and then her and Chelsea discussed uh 502 00:19:23,210 --> 00:19:21,480 the book Many Lives Many Masters by uh 503 00:19:24,830 --> 00:19:23,220 Dr Brian Weiss 504 00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:24,840 um and they didn't say what it was about 505 00:19:27,770 --> 00:19:25,919 they just kind of said it was a great 506 00:19:30,110 --> 00:19:27,780 book it's about a psychiatrist case 507 00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:30,120 study and Chelsea tells the story of how 508 00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:32,400 she got in a fight with someone like 509 00:19:35,450 --> 00:19:34,080 over dinner a friend who told her to 510 00:19:37,789 --> 00:19:35,460 read the book and she was like I'm never 511 00:19:39,230 --> 00:19:37,799 going to read this and then gets on a 512 00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:39,240 plane to fly home that night and the 513 00:19:43,549 --> 00:19:42,000 book is in the pocket of a seat in front 514 00:19:44,750 --> 00:19:43,559 of her and she reads it lands and it's 515 00:19:45,950 --> 00:19:44,760 like everyone has to read this book so 516 00:19:47,930 --> 00:19:45,960 of course I was like all right I'm gonna 517 00:19:50,630 --> 00:19:47,940 order this book immediately and it 518 00:19:52,190 --> 00:19:50,640 arrives and I and then you become one of 519 00:19:55,310 --> 00:19:52,200 those people right you start 520 00:19:57,950 --> 00:19:55,320 Distributing this book which is which is 521 00:19:59,570 --> 00:19:57,960 great which is great I I yeah the book 522 00:20:01,370 --> 00:19:59,580 was interesting because it's it's a 523 00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:01,380 short book it's you know it's a story 524 00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:02,640 it's 525 00:20:07,370 --> 00:20:04,559 um he's a 526 00:20:08,570 --> 00:20:07,380 an atheist I think he's skeptic he 527 00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:08,580 didn't believe in anything paranormal 528 00:20:12,409 --> 00:20:10,559 trained psychiatrist trained at like 529 00:20:15,289 --> 00:20:12,419 Yale and Colombia and he just stumbles 530 00:20:17,210 --> 00:20:15,299 across past life regression in his um in 531 00:20:19,070 --> 00:20:17,220 his practice but finds out that it's 532 00:20:21,470 --> 00:20:19,080 very healing and then through the 533 00:20:23,390 --> 00:20:21,480 sessions he describes the spiritual 534 00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:23,400 framework again he's like gets messages 535 00:20:28,669 --> 00:20:26,400 from these Master spirits and they 536 00:20:29,690 --> 00:20:28,679 describe the same exact thing so when I 537 00:20:31,789 --> 00:20:29,700 was reading the book I just remember 538 00:20:33,169 --> 00:20:31,799 thinking this is just the weirdest thing 539 00:20:36,110 --> 00:20:33,179 I've never heard of this and now I'm 540 00:20:37,669 --> 00:20:36,120 like getting it from all angles and I'm 541 00:20:39,890 --> 00:20:37,679 like and now it's from a psychiatrist 542 00:20:42,529 --> 00:20:39,900 who you know and I was all about 543 00:20:45,010 --> 00:20:42,539 Prestige then so I was like look at his 544 00:20:47,570 --> 00:20:45,020 credentials and it just got my attention 545 00:20:49,730 --> 00:20:47,580 and I just I just threw in a couple 546 00:20:52,430 --> 00:20:49,740 little tidbits here too because later on 547 00:20:54,830 --> 00:20:52,440 in the book like you follow all these 548 00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:54,840 threats again it's a great story it's a 549 00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:56,880 very personal story very open Story 550 00:21:03,110 --> 00:20:59,760 You're just very very 551 00:21:05,930 --> 00:21:03,120 Brave to be just this open being kind of 552 00:21:07,669 --> 00:21:05,940 the person you're you are supposed to be 553 00:21:10,010 --> 00:21:07,679 you know who we're supposed to hear but 554 00:21:13,130 --> 00:21:10,020 as you point out in the book what's 555 00:21:15,770 --> 00:21:13,140 interesting is when you look uh Weiss's 556 00:21:18,650 --> 00:21:15,780 experience isn't unique there's been 557 00:21:20,690 --> 00:21:18,660 many other hypnotherapists that 558 00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:20,700 literally stumble across this and the 559 00:21:24,529 --> 00:21:22,260 way they do it you describe this in the 560 00:21:26,270 --> 00:21:24,539 book is they regress people in the way 561 00:21:28,909 --> 00:21:26,280 they've been trained to regress people 562 00:21:30,590 --> 00:21:28,919 like oh I have a spirit fear of spiders 563 00:21:32,690 --> 00:21:30,600 okay go back to the first time remember 564 00:21:34,789 --> 00:21:32,700 I was two years oh okay I'm not afraid 565 00:21:36,110 --> 00:21:34,799 of spiders anymore so they get it's 566 00:21:38,270 --> 00:21:36,120 always the same story we thought you 567 00:21:40,250 --> 00:21:38,280 know it's the same thing with Newton in 568 00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:40,260 Newton's case the guy who's very well 569 00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:42,240 known for the between lives research but 570 00:21:47,149 --> 00:21:44,640 it all fits together he has a guy who 571 00:21:49,789 --> 00:21:47,159 has a shoulder injury and all the 572 00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:49,799 doctors in LA are like dude it's in your 573 00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:50,840 head 574 00:21:55,130 --> 00:21:53,520 quit coming into our office and he goes 575 00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:55,140 and sees him and it's a tough case and 576 00:21:59,149 --> 00:21:56,640 he goes okay further back further back 577 00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:59,159 further back and boom he's on a field of 578 00:22:03,230 --> 00:22:01,200 a a battlefield you know and he's 579 00:22:04,970 --> 00:22:03,240 describing all the things so as you 580 00:22:07,310 --> 00:22:04,980 point out in the book and document again 581 00:22:09,649 --> 00:22:07,320 because this is a book that is filled 582 00:22:11,210 --> 00:22:09,659 with substance and important research 583 00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:11,220 and she's a neuroscientist and later on 584 00:22:14,990 --> 00:22:13,200 we'll talk about maybe all the neural 585 00:22:16,549 --> 00:22:15,000 corals to the spiritual experience and 586 00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:16,559 she's got all this research that she 587 00:22:22,250 --> 00:22:19,980 cites and more than you'll be able to 588 00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:22,260 kind of absorb and you'll have a long 589 00:22:25,970 --> 00:22:24,000 reading list when you get done with this 590 00:22:28,490 --> 00:22:25,980 but the point being just like this small 591 00:22:31,490 --> 00:22:28,500 example she doesn't leave it there she 592 00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:31,500 goes and says okay isn't it interesting 593 00:22:35,810 --> 00:22:33,600 that these independent hypnotherapists 594 00:22:37,850 --> 00:22:35,820 who are just following a pretty 595 00:22:40,909 --> 00:22:37,860 well-known well 596 00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:40,919 you know ordained I mean they get paid 597 00:22:45,710 --> 00:22:42,960 the insurance company pays them for it 598 00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:45,720 and they stumble into this past life 599 00:22:50,270 --> 00:22:48,000 thing isn't that interesting so I'm 600 00:22:51,890 --> 00:22:50,280 sorry pick up your story yeah and and I 601 00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:51,900 found that really really fascinating 602 00:22:56,750 --> 00:22:55,200 because from a purely like even 603 00:22:59,330 --> 00:22:56,760 Neuroscience mental health perspective 604 00:23:01,430 --> 00:22:59,340 because I'm I did I went and read not 605 00:23:04,430 --> 00:23:01,440 just all of his books but Michael Newton 606 00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:04,440 Roger Bolder um some Dolores Cannon a 607 00:23:08,270 --> 00:23:05,840 lot of the past life progression 608 00:23:10,190 --> 00:23:08,280 therapists because and then you know I 609 00:23:11,570 --> 00:23:10,200 tried to read other um psychology books 610 00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:11,580 too to see but of course they just don't 611 00:23:15,049 --> 00:23:13,860 even touch it but they but yeah and I 612 00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:15,059 just thought it was so autumn like so if 613 00:23:19,549 --> 00:23:17,039 you put somebody in a regressed state 614 00:23:20,930 --> 00:23:19,559 and ask them to describe spiritual 615 00:23:23,270 --> 00:23:20,940 framework that's the one they usually 616 00:23:25,070 --> 00:23:23,280 describe enough so that like these these 617 00:23:28,490 --> 00:23:25,080 practitioners have had thousands of 618 00:23:30,409 --> 00:23:28,500 patients thousands of cases like put all 619 00:23:31,970 --> 00:23:30,419 together and they all say similar things 620 00:23:33,289 --> 00:23:31,980 so that they can write these books and 621 00:23:35,390 --> 00:23:33,299 give you these summaries like to me 622 00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:35,400 that's just insane 623 00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:37,860 still I still think it's so interesting 624 00:23:42,649 --> 00:23:40,559 because as a phenomenon it's like what 625 00:23:44,750 --> 00:23:42,659 where is this coming from it's not even 626 00:23:46,190 --> 00:23:44,760 a you know Western culture it's not even 627 00:23:48,890 --> 00:23:46,200 I didn't even know what it was it's not 628 00:23:49,850 --> 00:23:48,900 a popular it's more popular now I think 629 00:23:51,770 --> 00:23:49,860 but 630 00:23:53,870 --> 00:23:51,780 um a lot of these practitioners were 631 00:23:55,490 --> 00:23:53,880 from the 70s the 80s you know no 632 00:23:57,409 --> 00:23:55,500 internet and so 633 00:23:59,510 --> 00:23:57,419 I just really couldn't get I couldn't 634 00:24:01,310 --> 00:23:59,520 get over that and I just kept wondering 635 00:24:04,850 --> 00:24:01,320 I just like as I say in the book I just 636 00:24:09,470 --> 00:24:04,860 kept thinking about you know is it some 637 00:24:10,970 --> 00:24:09,480 like you know biological thing but but I 638 00:24:14,409 --> 00:24:10,980 don't know like I just kept coming back 639 00:24:17,870 --> 00:24:14,419 to maybe it's spiritual 640 00:24:20,149 --> 00:24:17,880 like it was really hard for me but I 641 00:24:22,250 --> 00:24:20,159 just kept like it just kept coming up in 642 00:24:23,570 --> 00:24:22,260 my head like well maybe well maybe you 643 00:24:26,450 --> 00:24:23,580 know like I don't know maybe you should 644 00:24:28,130 --> 00:24:26,460 open your mind but so then that's when I 645 00:24:29,990 --> 00:24:28,140 really was like let me just keep reading 646 00:24:31,789 --> 00:24:30,000 and then I was like let me reach out to 647 00:24:33,649 --> 00:24:31,799 The windbridge Institute and talk to 648 00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:33,659 them because you know 649 00:24:38,990 --> 00:24:36,720 um as you mentioned Julia is a has a PHD 650 00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:39,000 and you know they seem to be doing good 651 00:24:44,510 --> 00:24:41,640 research so I spoke to them and then um 652 00:24:46,490 --> 00:24:44,520 the co-founder gave me a huge reading 653 00:24:48,169 --> 00:24:46,500 list and he was like 654 00:24:49,669 --> 00:24:48,179 um he's like I think you need to do some 655 00:24:52,250 --> 00:24:49,679 reading mark 656 00:24:54,529 --> 00:24:52,260 yeah Mark Mark he was like I think you 657 00:24:56,149 --> 00:24:54,539 mean to do some reading in a nice way 658 00:24:58,909 --> 00:24:56,159 but yeah but he gave me a useless and 659 00:25:02,330 --> 00:24:58,919 then I went off to do and Mark gave you 660 00:25:04,490 --> 00:25:02,340 another little Easter egg too that you 661 00:25:07,070 --> 00:25:04,500 explore and we'll explore and when we 662 00:25:10,190 --> 00:25:07,080 talk about he goes and you're not only 663 00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:10,200 is this research repress but it's 664 00:25:14,330 --> 00:25:12,000 suppressed and when you go and do a 665 00:25:16,490 --> 00:25:14,340 Google search on this it doesn't come up 666 00:25:18,049 --> 00:25:16,500 go over to DuckDuckGo and it does come 667 00:25:21,169 --> 00:25:18,059 up hmm 668 00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:21,179 I use Google Scholar for um most to find 669 00:25:25,490 --> 00:25:23,760 academic Publications and when I went to 670 00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:25,500 look up some of the papers that he 671 00:25:29,690 --> 00:25:26,880 mentioned 672 00:25:33,049 --> 00:25:29,700 um I couldn't find them unless I put the 673 00:25:34,970 --> 00:25:33,059 exact like title exact authors like I 674 00:25:36,529 --> 00:25:34,980 had to have everything exactly right for 675 00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:36,539 it to come up it was really hard to find 676 00:25:41,210 --> 00:25:39,120 and it was anything that was 677 00:25:43,130 --> 00:25:41,220 um I'm trying I think Society for 678 00:25:45,169 --> 00:25:43,140 psychical research like the journal for 679 00:25:46,610 --> 00:25:45,179 that or um some of the other ones but 680 00:25:47,870 --> 00:25:46,620 they were yeah they didn't come up it 681 00:25:49,250 --> 00:25:47,880 took me a while to find them and I was 682 00:25:52,850 --> 00:25:49,260 like oh my God he's right they're not in 683 00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:52,860 text like easily to be easily found 684 00:25:57,470 --> 00:25:54,960 um and so that was I mean that was 685 00:25:59,570 --> 00:25:57,480 annoying just frankly it was just really 686 00:26:00,590 --> 00:25:59,580 um labor intensive to even find the 687 00:26:02,029 --> 00:26:00,600 research 688 00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:02,039 um and then to be able to read through 689 00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:03,840 it and everything but 690 00:26:07,909 --> 00:26:05,940 but I did it and then I became more and 691 00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:07,919 more Curious and then I started reaching 692 00:26:12,769 --> 00:26:09,840 out to to more people 693 00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:12,779 um and I read about Stargate and reached 694 00:26:16,669 --> 00:26:14,640 out to Halford off and Edward May and 695 00:26:19,070 --> 00:26:16,679 spoke to them and and read all their 696 00:26:21,049 --> 00:26:19,080 papers and then by the end of that I was 697 00:26:23,990 --> 00:26:21,059 like okay psychic phenomenon is real 698 00:26:27,289 --> 00:26:24,000 it's like I read enough like there was 699 00:26:30,409 --> 00:26:27,299 there was so much evidence 700 00:26:32,690 --> 00:26:30,419 you know a big part of this story 701 00:26:35,570 --> 00:26:32,700 and it's so awesome again that you 702 00:26:38,990 --> 00:26:35,580 approach this you the phrase you use is 703 00:26:41,149 --> 00:26:39,000 science made me feel valuable 704 00:26:43,730 --> 00:26:41,159 and a lot of your story is kind of 705 00:26:47,269 --> 00:26:43,740 deconstructing that on that existential 706 00:26:49,669 --> 00:26:47,279 level and also so you you because you 707 00:26:52,970 --> 00:26:49,679 have like you're saying you have these 708 00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:52,980 things that we all encounter you know in 709 00:26:57,230 --> 00:26:55,679 various levels the loss the grief you 710 00:26:59,630 --> 00:26:57,240 know and it doesn't have to be somebody 711 00:27:02,510 --> 00:26:59,640 in your immediate family it can be 712 00:27:04,610 --> 00:27:02,520 somebody who you just know and have a 713 00:27:06,529 --> 00:27:04,620 friendship and a kinship with like you 714 00:27:07,970 --> 00:27:06,539 do if you're a professor and suddenly 715 00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:07,980 you're confronted with death and then it 716 00:27:13,070 --> 00:27:10,500 can be a breakup you know and like it's 717 00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:13,080 so easy to dismiss those things oh you 718 00:27:16,970 --> 00:27:14,880 know especially in our culture you know 719 00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:16,980 no it's your heart you know in your 720 00:27:22,490 --> 00:27:19,039 heart your heart breaks and it Grieves 721 00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:22,500 and I think you do just an awesome and 722 00:27:30,830 --> 00:27:27,120 unique job of helping us understand how 723 00:27:33,890 --> 00:27:30,840 you have to separate out the head game 724 00:27:36,470 --> 00:27:33,900 the trip that scientific materialism has 725 00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:36,480 taken you on that prevents you from 726 00:27:41,870 --> 00:27:40,260 connecting with these feelings and one 727 00:27:44,750 --> 00:27:41,880 of the things that I love is this 728 00:27:46,370 --> 00:27:44,760 science made me feel valuable and that's 729 00:27:47,930 --> 00:27:46,380 something really really hard to give up 730 00:27:50,690 --> 00:27:47,940 especially because you're a woman and 731 00:27:53,810 --> 00:27:50,700 you you fought so hard to be felt 732 00:27:55,970 --> 00:27:53,820 valuable in this gray-haired men's World 733 00:27:57,529 --> 00:27:55,980 you know and your Iranian woman all the 734 00:27:59,330 --> 00:27:57,539 rest of that stuff you know it's like 735 00:28:03,110 --> 00:27:59,340 talk about that because you talk about 736 00:28:05,149 --> 00:28:03,120 it eloquently in the book yes yeah that 737 00:28:08,390 --> 00:28:05,159 man and that's that's the part that was 738 00:28:10,190 --> 00:28:08,400 hard or actually was um so what was hard 739 00:28:12,649 --> 00:28:10,200 was I was reading all this evidence and 740 00:28:14,690 --> 00:28:12,659 I just as I was talking to you I said oh 741 00:28:17,750 --> 00:28:14,700 psychic phenomena is real but it was not 742 00:28:19,909 --> 00:28:17,760 that easy for me in the moment it was a 743 00:28:21,710 --> 00:28:19,919 battle every single day waking up 744 00:28:23,210 --> 00:28:21,720 thinking I've been fooled that was the 745 00:28:24,470 --> 00:28:23,220 thought that kept coming up because when 746 00:28:26,029 --> 00:28:24,480 you've been fooled you're stupid you 747 00:28:28,370 --> 00:28:26,039 fell for it those were the three 748 00:28:31,130 --> 00:28:28,380 thoughts that kept coming up and I 749 00:28:32,930 --> 00:28:31,140 couldn't recognize them as thoughts 750 00:28:34,549 --> 00:28:32,940 right that were not that were me they 751 00:28:37,130 --> 00:28:34,559 were me I'm telling myself that but I 752 00:28:40,010 --> 00:28:37,140 couldn't get that and because of that it 753 00:28:41,570 --> 00:28:40,020 was just a continuous struggle of back 754 00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:41,580 and forth reading something even having 755 00:28:44,810 --> 00:28:43,200 all this personal experience I had that 756 00:28:47,269 --> 00:28:44,820 already should have proved it to me but 757 00:28:48,890 --> 00:28:47,279 then okay finding scientific papers but 758 00:28:51,169 --> 00:28:48,900 every morning waking up you've been 759 00:28:52,669 --> 00:28:51,179 fooled or stupid you um they're not 760 00:28:54,649 --> 00:28:52,679 going to respect you 761 00:28:55,909 --> 00:28:54,659 um your degree is for nothing like you 762 00:29:00,409 --> 00:28:55,919 know those are the things that come up 763 00:29:03,169 --> 00:29:00,419 but I it took a lot of self work or 764 00:29:04,190 --> 00:29:03,179 whatever like a lot of 765 00:29:06,289 --> 00:29:04,200 um and they don't teach you anything 766 00:29:07,490 --> 00:29:06,299 about psychology and our culture teaches 767 00:29:08,810 --> 00:29:07,500 you nothing about taking care of 768 00:29:10,850 --> 00:29:08,820 yourself and your emotions or your 769 00:29:12,110 --> 00:29:10,860 psychology so I had to do go learn all 770 00:29:14,510 --> 00:29:12,120 of that 771 00:29:16,370 --> 00:29:14,520 um along the way and that's when I 772 00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:16,380 started to notice 773 00:29:22,090 --> 00:29:18,960 um you know these thoughts that were I 774 00:29:25,789 --> 00:29:22,100 was like like what is preventing me from 775 00:29:27,950 --> 00:29:25,799 enjoying the spirituality why can't I 776 00:29:29,570 --> 00:29:27,960 just why can't I just accept it I would 777 00:29:31,970 --> 00:29:29,580 look at people who are spiritual With 778 00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:31,980 Envy like oh God I'm so like jealous 779 00:29:37,370 --> 00:29:34,559 that you can just accept it and take 780 00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:37,380 comfort from it like why can't I and 781 00:29:40,669 --> 00:29:38,880 actually I wish I could say that I came 782 00:29:42,590 --> 00:29:40,679 to it on my own I did notice the 783 00:29:46,669 --> 00:29:42,600 thoughts but it was actually this um 784 00:29:49,549 --> 00:29:46,679 person I spoke to who he's a he was a 785 00:29:52,430 --> 00:29:49,559 therapist and then he his um psychic 786 00:29:54,350 --> 00:29:52,440 ability opened up like midlife so he 787 00:29:57,169 --> 00:29:54,360 abandoned me a therapist to be a psychic 788 00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:57,179 but he still trained in it so I was I 789 00:30:01,669 --> 00:29:59,760 knew him through a friend and he told me 790 00:30:03,529 --> 00:30:01,679 I told him I was like can you just tell 791 00:30:04,970 --> 00:30:03,539 me what my problem is I don't care I 792 00:30:06,470 --> 00:30:04,980 don't want to a psycho ad I don't want 793 00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:06,480 to come to it on my own I just tell me 794 00:30:11,870 --> 00:30:09,600 what it is and then and he told me and 795 00:30:13,130 --> 00:30:11,880 he's like oh it's just because or he's 796 00:30:16,130 --> 00:30:13,140 like well I'm sure I have a lot of 797 00:30:17,870 --> 00:30:16,140 problems but he pointed out he said it's 798 00:30:19,970 --> 00:30:17,880 like you know your your thing you're 799 00:30:23,210 --> 00:30:19,980 you're the point of the sticking point 800 00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:23,220 here is is that you can't like go of the 801 00:30:26,690 --> 00:30:24,720 intellect and the science because it's 802 00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:26,700 made you feel valuable for whatever 803 00:30:31,130 --> 00:30:29,279 reason and and I remember when he told 804 00:30:32,810 --> 00:30:31,140 me I was like that's not true and you 805 00:30:34,850 --> 00:30:32,820 know I had to go off for months and like 806 00:30:36,590 --> 00:30:34,860 meditate on that and realize how it was 807 00:30:38,330 --> 00:30:36,600 true then I could then I started hearing 808 00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:38,340 the thoughts and I was like oh my God 809 00:30:42,230 --> 00:30:39,960 he's right 810 00:30:44,210 --> 00:30:42,240 but he you know he pointed out to me and 811 00:30:46,190 --> 00:30:44,220 I thought oh my goodness this is so true 812 00:30:47,930 --> 00:30:46,200 like you want to be accepted too like 813 00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:47,940 you like you said you is and it's really 814 00:30:50,990 --> 00:30:49,440 hard as a woman in science like you're 815 00:30:52,549 --> 00:30:51,000 always worried about what you're wearing 816 00:30:55,070 --> 00:30:52,559 how much makeup you're wearing how you 817 00:30:57,529 --> 00:30:55,080 sound but no one is taking you seriously 818 00:31:00,230 --> 00:30:57,539 sexual harassment left and right like 819 00:31:01,730 --> 00:31:00,240 it's real as it is in many fields and 820 00:31:04,909 --> 00:31:01,740 all you want is to be taken seriously 821 00:31:06,710 --> 00:31:04,919 and I do feel like along the way you 822 00:31:09,470 --> 00:31:06,720 start suppressing parts of yourself 823 00:31:10,730 --> 00:31:09,480 right like parts of self-expression you 824 00:31:12,889 --> 00:31:10,740 change the way you dress the way you 825 00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:12,899 speak the way you do your makeup the 826 00:31:17,029 --> 00:31:14,880 things you talk about the things you 827 00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:17,039 admit to being interested in all of 828 00:31:21,289 --> 00:31:19,919 those things change so that by it's in a 829 00:31:24,049 --> 00:31:21,299 wonder by the end of grad school I was 830 00:31:25,549 --> 00:31:24,059 not happy take that one step further and 831 00:31:27,710 --> 00:31:25,559 again it's something unique you bring to 832 00:31:29,450 --> 00:31:27,720 this because you have a an extra layer 833 00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:29,460 of sensitivity to that but then you 834 00:31:34,250 --> 00:31:32,399 start deconstructing this larger 835 00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:34,260 question of scientific materialism you 836 00:31:38,210 --> 00:31:36,000 go gee this is ridiculous there's 837 00:31:39,769 --> 00:31:38,220 overwhelming evidence from all these 838 00:31:42,110 --> 00:31:39,779 different fields even when I look at the 839 00:31:43,909 --> 00:31:42,120 cut Cutting Edge work that's being done 840 00:31:45,289 --> 00:31:43,919 in physics and Quantum physical it's all 841 00:31:48,830 --> 00:31:45,299 pointing in the same direction what's 842 00:31:51,230 --> 00:31:48,840 going on here and then you are equipped 843 00:31:54,529 --> 00:31:51,240 to look at scientists who you talk to so 844 00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:54,539 you let's say that this book then leads 845 00:32:01,370 --> 00:31:57,120 you to interviewing many leading 846 00:32:03,049 --> 00:32:01,380 thinkers scientists and their ideas and 847 00:32:05,450 --> 00:32:03,059 thoughts work their way into the book 848 00:32:07,190 --> 00:32:05,460 but you're then trying to understand and 849 00:32:08,810 --> 00:32:07,200 you do understand why they can't do it 850 00:32:11,210 --> 00:32:08,820 because they're doing they're doing the 851 00:32:15,710 --> 00:32:11,220 same game you're doing and I that's how 852 00:32:19,730 --> 00:32:18,590 yeah and yeah we're just all scared and 853 00:32:21,169 --> 00:32:19,740 um and what are they scared of 854 00:32:23,570 --> 00:32:21,179 specifically because like you like you 855 00:32:26,330 --> 00:32:23,580 say you know you feel good about being 856 00:32:28,730 --> 00:32:26,340 smart and being this smart scientific 857 00:32:30,350 --> 00:32:28,740 woman and then you find that they're 858 00:32:32,090 --> 00:32:30,360 scared about the same thing and they're 859 00:32:35,450 --> 00:32:32,100 also scared about you know what will 860 00:32:37,970 --> 00:32:35,460 their colleagues say in the cafeteria if 861 00:32:40,549 --> 00:32:37,980 they find out that they wrote an article 862 00:32:43,250 --> 00:32:40,559 or even made a blog post or you know or 863 00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:43,260 what will happen to my funding and you 864 00:32:47,090 --> 00:32:44,880 know can I really do that inside of 865 00:32:48,649 --> 00:32:47,100 environment where we all know what the 866 00:32:51,529 --> 00:32:48,659 head of the department thinks you know 867 00:32:52,970 --> 00:32:51,539 so Europe just tuned into that when you 868 00:32:56,510 --> 00:32:52,980 talk to these guys you're like I get 869 00:32:58,130 --> 00:32:56,520 that I know that deal yeah yeah they I 870 00:32:59,990 --> 00:32:58,140 think that yeah when I when I spoke to 871 00:33:01,730 --> 00:33:00,000 my scientist colleagues I was it was 872 00:33:03,710 --> 00:33:01,740 when I was going through my little my 873 00:33:05,930 --> 00:33:03,720 second my identity crisis and I was like 874 00:33:07,789 --> 00:33:05,940 Am I who am I am I not a scientist 875 00:33:09,710 --> 00:33:07,799 anymore do what do other scientists 876 00:33:11,450 --> 00:33:09,720 believe in do they are they spiritual 877 00:33:13,490 --> 00:33:11,460 are they religious are they do they 878 00:33:15,649 --> 00:33:13,500 believe in anything paranormal and yeah 879 00:33:17,870 --> 00:33:15,659 I just spoke to one of my advice 880 00:33:20,389 --> 00:33:17,880 advisors actually and then a lot of my 881 00:33:22,190 --> 00:33:20,399 just colleagues and friends who were now 882 00:33:25,009 --> 00:33:22,200 in great you know High positions in 883 00:33:27,529 --> 00:33:25,019 Academia and elsewhere in companies and 884 00:33:29,149 --> 00:33:27,539 all of them were actually and the truth 885 00:33:30,230 --> 00:33:29,159 is like any scientist that's what I 886 00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:30,240 would say in the book like in 887 00:33:35,269 --> 00:33:33,360 confidentially they'll tell you like we 888 00:33:37,310 --> 00:33:35,279 know the limits of Science and we can't 889 00:33:38,750 --> 00:33:37,320 possibly know everything besides we 890 00:33:40,730 --> 00:33:38,760 can't use the scientific method for 891 00:33:42,350 --> 00:33:40,740 everything and also we're limited by 892 00:33:44,690 --> 00:33:42,360 time right like we we just haven't 893 00:33:47,330 --> 00:33:44,700 figured a lot of stuff out yet and a lot 894 00:33:49,850 --> 00:33:47,340 of them were interested in 895 00:33:52,130 --> 00:33:49,860 um kind of this paranormal phenomena or 896 00:33:53,810 --> 00:33:52,140 like they had red uh Dean radin's books 897 00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:53,820 or one of them had even bought dowsing 898 00:33:58,850 --> 00:33:56,640 rods one of them had was like oh I went 899 00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:58,860 into the Neuroscience um because I was 900 00:34:02,930 --> 00:34:00,720 interested in philosophy but and these 901 00:34:04,970 --> 00:34:02,940 bigger questions about life you know and 902 00:34:08,210 --> 00:34:04,980 he's like I love ghost stories and stuff 903 00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:08,220 so all of them were you know human and 904 00:34:11,810 --> 00:34:10,320 but I we had never talked about these 905 00:34:13,369 --> 00:34:11,820 things together so it made me feel so 906 00:34:14,930 --> 00:34:13,379 much better first of all just to 907 00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:14,940 establish that I was like okay I'm not 908 00:34:18,889 --> 00:34:16,560 alone like we're all human I think at 909 00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:18,899 the end of the day but yeah when it 910 00:34:24,109 --> 00:34:22,320 comes to taking it public you know some 911 00:34:26,089 --> 00:34:24,119 of them were like well you know I would 912 00:34:27,109 --> 00:34:26,099 never talk about this like at a faculty 913 00:34:29,810 --> 00:34:27,119 meeting 914 00:34:32,690 --> 00:34:29,820 there's also a deeper level of denial 915 00:34:35,930 --> 00:34:32,700 that I think you you get to because 916 00:34:38,329 --> 00:34:35,940 you're so open and truly just digging 917 00:34:41,930 --> 00:34:38,339 through this stuff personally that comes 918 00:34:43,730 --> 00:34:41,940 through in the book and in a way I think 919 00:34:45,109 --> 00:34:43,740 you kind of let them off the hook a 920 00:34:48,109 --> 00:34:45,119 little too easily Mona because they kind 921 00:34:49,970 --> 00:34:48,119 of give some explanations it don't just 922 00:34:52,909 --> 00:34:49,980 don't stand up to scrutiny and the kind 923 00:34:54,770 --> 00:34:52,919 of scrutiny that you do in the in the 924 00:34:56,810 --> 00:34:54,780 book and you just kind of give them a 925 00:34:58,910 --> 00:34:56,820 pass like we do people and you you've 926 00:35:01,130 --> 00:34:58,920 got to give people a little bit of a 927 00:35:02,829 --> 00:35:01,140 pass but what you do is you just 928 00:35:07,250 --> 00:35:02,839 deconstruct 929 00:35:08,810 --> 00:35:07,260 materialism as just untenable versus the 930 00:35:10,609 --> 00:35:08,820 evidence and you do it in the book and 931 00:35:12,050 --> 00:35:10,619 you do it over and over again and I 932 00:35:14,450 --> 00:35:12,060 think you could even go one step further 933 00:35:16,609 --> 00:35:14,460 because and and you rigorously go 934 00:35:18,410 --> 00:35:16,619 through this but if we cannot measure 935 00:35:20,569 --> 00:35:18,420 because if we don't know what time is 936 00:35:21,890 --> 00:35:20,579 and if we cannot measure because we 937 00:35:23,810 --> 00:35:21,900 don't know the influence of 938 00:35:25,550 --> 00:35:23,820 Consciousness and that we know that 939 00:35:27,230 --> 00:35:25,560 Consciousness is always in play and we 940 00:35:29,450 --> 00:35:27,240 know the observer effect and the 941 00:35:33,650 --> 00:35:29,460 experiment or effect is always in play 942 00:35:35,450 --> 00:35:33,660 then we don't really have a science that 943 00:35:37,069 --> 00:35:35,460 we can hold on to and we can still say 944 00:35:38,569 --> 00:35:37,079 like you do in the book that well we 945 00:35:41,030 --> 00:35:38,579 still have the scientific method and the 946 00:35:42,230 --> 00:35:41,040 still valuable yada yada true to a 947 00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:42,240 certain extent but we can kind of 948 00:35:45,290 --> 00:35:43,500 reorder the whole thing and put 949 00:35:47,329 --> 00:35:45,300 everything under engineering you know if 950 00:35:49,490 --> 00:35:47,339 you can put it on an iPhone and we can 951 00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:49,500 use it that's great otherwise don't go 952 00:35:53,150 --> 00:35:51,359 splacking on your you know about how you 953 00:35:55,490 --> 00:35:53,160 could do this and do that you can't do 954 00:35:57,770 --> 00:35:55,500 [\h__\h] really you can just approximate and 955 00:36:00,050 --> 00:35:57,780 if that's good enough to make something 956 00:36:01,849 --> 00:36:00,060 better but yeah but I don't I don't 957 00:36:03,550 --> 00:36:01,859 think they're doing that on a day-to-day 958 00:36:05,810 --> 00:36:03,560 basis and I don't think a lot of them 959 00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:05,820 are yeah they just don't think that they 960 00:36:09,950 --> 00:36:07,440 engage with these questions on a 961 00:36:12,829 --> 00:36:09,960 day-to-day basis like when I I like much 962 00:36:15,230 --> 00:36:12,839 like me before I have this crisis you 963 00:36:17,390 --> 00:36:15,240 could not engage me in a conversation on 964 00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:17,400 this stuff like I would be too busy I'm 965 00:36:21,230 --> 00:36:18,960 too tired I have too many other things 966 00:36:22,609 --> 00:36:21,240 to read and do and think about and it's 967 00:36:23,870 --> 00:36:22,619 like you try to talk to me about that 968 00:36:25,609 --> 00:36:23,880 I'd be like I don't have time for this 969 00:36:29,329 --> 00:36:25,619 you know like I'm not interested in this 970 00:36:30,410 --> 00:36:29,339 so I think if if you and you can't force 971 00:36:32,810 --> 00:36:30,420 people to be interested in things 972 00:36:35,089 --> 00:36:32,820 they're not interested in so I think oh 973 00:36:37,370 --> 00:36:35,099 when it comes you know it takes like a 974 00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:37,380 perfect storm of these things to open 975 00:36:41,870 --> 00:36:40,320 you up to things and that's that's what 976 00:36:44,329 --> 00:36:41,880 I try to keep in mind 977 00:36:46,130 --> 00:36:44,339 um because I just always like I wrote 978 00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:46,140 the book like that about old me new me 979 00:36:50,210 --> 00:36:48,240 because I I just now I find myself in 980 00:36:51,530 --> 00:36:50,220 that position of exactly what you you 981 00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:51,540 were saying like I find myself 982 00:36:56,510 --> 00:36:54,480 frustrated sometimes that um I get 983 00:36:58,849 --> 00:36:56,520 confronted with these extremely limited 984 00:37:01,849 --> 00:36:58,859 frankly lazy explanations about 985 00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:01,859 materialism from other scientists and 986 00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:02,880 you know 987 00:37:06,829 --> 00:37:05,280 I just try to think back to myself and 988 00:37:07,970 --> 00:37:06,839 you know I could present them a huge 989 00:37:09,589 --> 00:37:07,980 reading list but are they really going 990 00:37:10,670 --> 00:37:09,599 to go read it like they're not they're 991 00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:10,680 busy 992 00:37:14,270 --> 00:37:12,480 um and they're just gonna fall back on 993 00:37:16,490 --> 00:37:14,280 their lazy arguments and I'm gonna go on 994 00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:16,500 my way but you know until it comes a day 995 00:37:20,750 --> 00:37:18,960 when they need to need it or something 996 00:37:22,250 --> 00:37:20,760 happens to them as Jeff kreypel writes 997 00:37:24,050 --> 00:37:22,260 in his excellent book The Flip when 998 00:37:26,930 --> 00:37:24,060 something happens and the world view is 999 00:37:30,349 --> 00:37:26,940 flipped and then they'll come calling 1000 00:37:32,690 --> 00:37:30,359 very interesting because you know both 1001 00:37:34,730 --> 00:37:32,700 through skeptico and I've been at this 1002 00:37:37,609 --> 00:37:34,740 for a long time but it took me a long 1003 00:37:41,030 --> 00:37:37,619 time to realize this you know your book 1004 00:37:44,030 --> 00:37:41,040 is as much an exercise in why people 1005 00:37:46,550 --> 00:37:44,040 believe weird things as it is anything 1006 00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:46,560 else and it's about belief systems and 1007 00:37:53,810 --> 00:37:49,760 World Views and how those change and 1008 00:37:57,349 --> 00:37:53,820 essentially and importantly how you can 1009 00:37:59,810 --> 00:37:57,359 go about being the master of that 1010 00:38:03,230 --> 00:37:59,820 process as you are because that's what 1011 00:38:06,290 --> 00:38:03,240 you do you take on that that job so any 1012 00:38:08,930 --> 00:38:06,300 thoughts on number one kind of looking 1013 00:38:11,089 --> 00:38:08,940 out and it's brutal but it's true you 1014 00:38:14,089 --> 00:38:11,099 know why do people get stuck in these 1015 00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:14,099 belief system roots that don't serve 1016 00:38:17,569 --> 00:38:15,900 them and in particular well now we're 1017 00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:17,579 talking about the scientific 1018 00:38:22,670 --> 00:38:20,400 materialistic World Views that don't 1019 00:38:23,329 --> 00:38:22,680 serve them and then number two how do 1020 00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:23,339 you 1021 00:38:34,370 --> 00:38:32,400 second one's hard uh the first one is 1022 00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:34,380 yeah I think that 1023 00:38:42,530 --> 00:38:35,640 I 1024 00:38:43,910 --> 00:38:42,540 my but my experience it does come back 1025 00:38:46,550 --> 00:38:43,920 to 1026 00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:46,560 our needs as people and I feel like 1027 00:38:52,849 --> 00:38:50,400 things serve you as long as they fill 1028 00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:52,859 some need that you have like for me I 1029 00:38:57,530 --> 00:38:55,260 needed to feel valuable signs filled 1030 00:39:01,069 --> 00:38:57,540 that need so for a while that worked for 1031 00:39:03,829 --> 00:39:01,079 me and then it didn't anymore and I 1032 00:39:07,370 --> 00:39:03,839 think that I think that that's 1033 00:39:09,170 --> 00:39:07,380 for whatever reason you know people are 1034 00:39:10,370 --> 00:39:09,180 born into belief systems or whatever 1035 00:39:12,530 --> 00:39:10,380 whatever however they land to other 1036 00:39:14,630 --> 00:39:12,540 belief systems it's various paths for 1037 00:39:16,010 --> 00:39:14,640 different people it must be fulfilling a 1038 00:39:17,630 --> 00:39:16,020 need for you if it wasn't working for 1039 00:39:20,270 --> 00:39:17,640 you I think that's when you do hit 1040 00:39:22,670 --> 00:39:20,280 crisis like I did and that's when it 1041 00:39:24,109 --> 00:39:22,680 pushes you to to look and to change 1042 00:39:25,790 --> 00:39:24,119 something is not working for you then 1043 00:39:28,130 --> 00:39:25,800 you have to do something but so long as 1044 00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:28,140 it fulfills needs and you're not pushed 1045 00:39:33,290 --> 00:39:30,000 to that crisis point I just think humans 1046 00:39:35,210 --> 00:39:33,300 don't voluntarily want to transform 1047 00:39:37,010 --> 00:39:35,220 right like who wants to go through a 1048 00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:37,020 crisis like that I don't think I would 1049 00:39:41,329 --> 00:39:40,079 have I think I was forced to so and how 1050 00:39:43,069 --> 00:39:41,339 to do it I mean 1051 00:39:45,050 --> 00:39:43,079 you know I thought a lot about that 1052 00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:45,060 because as I've gone through it I've 1053 00:39:49,210 --> 00:39:47,220 I've thought about the beginning when I 1054 00:39:52,910 --> 00:39:49,220 struggled against it and then ultimately 1055 00:39:56,050 --> 00:39:52,920 how did it become easier for me and it 1056 00:39:59,210 --> 00:39:56,060 really was just letting go and which 1057 00:40:01,310 --> 00:39:59,220 sounds easy but is not at all you see 1058 00:40:04,910 --> 00:40:01,320 but like letting go and surrendering and 1059 00:40:07,609 --> 00:40:04,920 and then continuously asking myself but 1060 00:40:10,910 --> 00:40:07,619 what if you're wrong and 1061 00:40:13,910 --> 00:40:10,920 um and stay radically curious because I 1062 00:40:16,970 --> 00:40:13,920 think also once I finally was like okay 1063 00:40:18,170 --> 00:40:16,980 you know what I don't know what the re I 1064 00:40:20,089 --> 00:40:18,180 don't know what reality is I don't know 1065 00:40:23,390 --> 00:40:20,099 what the universe is all I know is 1066 00:40:26,210 --> 00:40:23,400 materialism is not it and or is not 1067 00:40:27,710 --> 00:40:26,220 working for me and it doesn't explain a 1068 00:40:28,910 --> 00:40:27,720 lot of my experiences and other people's 1069 00:40:32,270 --> 00:40:28,920 experiences 1070 00:40:34,010 --> 00:40:32,280 but I you know not ready to commit to 1071 00:40:36,050 --> 00:40:34,020 another one now because I'm like I I 1072 00:40:38,690 --> 00:40:36,060 thought I was so right oh man I thought 1073 00:40:41,510 --> 00:40:38,700 I was it I thought I had it and I was so 1074 00:40:44,569 --> 00:40:41,520 you know wrong or but it ended up 1075 00:40:46,670 --> 00:40:44,579 flipping so now I'm careful and try not 1076 00:40:49,069 --> 00:40:46,680 to cling I try to stay open-minded and 1077 00:40:51,589 --> 00:40:49,079 just I think of it like data sets now I 1078 00:40:54,710 --> 00:40:51,599 think of all of us as having limited 1079 00:40:56,450 --> 00:40:54,720 data sets or like an Excel sheet and I 1080 00:40:58,609 --> 00:40:56,460 think of it as like I had an Excel sheet 1081 00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:58,619 of my worldview and it was locked and I 1082 00:41:02,750 --> 00:41:00,480 was like no more information please I am 1083 00:41:05,210 --> 00:41:02,760 good I have the correct world view and 1084 00:41:06,950 --> 00:41:05,220 then of course I opened up added data to 1085 00:41:08,569 --> 00:41:06,960 it and now I'm always thinking I never 1086 00:41:10,910 --> 00:41:08,579 want to lock the sheet again I just want 1087 00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:10,920 to keep adding data and that's how I 1088 00:41:14,089 --> 00:41:12,000 think of it when I relate to other 1089 00:41:16,190 --> 00:41:14,099 people too that they have different data 1090 00:41:18,050 --> 00:41:16,200 sets like so if I'm referring to 1091 00:41:19,550 --> 00:41:18,060 something that they don't have in their 1092 00:41:20,569 --> 00:41:19,560 data set they're just not going to get 1093 00:41:22,490 --> 00:41:20,579 it 1094 00:41:25,550 --> 00:41:22,500 again I have to wonder if you're being 1095 00:41:28,970 --> 00:41:25,560 overly generous there but 1096 00:41:32,270 --> 00:41:28,980 because in the book you kind of do 1097 00:41:35,089 --> 00:41:32,280 revealed some of the secret sauce I mean 1098 00:41:38,030 --> 00:41:35,099 you become a meditator and you actively 1099 00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:38,040 do that you jump into these experiences 1100 00:41:43,910 --> 00:41:42,000 you do pass life regression you do you 1101 00:41:46,310 --> 00:41:43,920 do and you continue to get you continue 1102 00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:46,320 to get readings you even are open about 1103 00:41:51,530 --> 00:41:49,040 having an LSD experience you know 1104 00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:51,540 hallucinogenic experience which I gotta 1105 00:41:55,730 --> 00:41:53,280 tell you you know at this point so many 1106 00:41:58,190 --> 00:41:55,740 people have but very very few people 1107 00:42:00,950 --> 00:41:58,200 write about it and say Yep this happened 1108 00:42:03,890 --> 00:42:00,960 and here's how I integrated it in and 1109 00:42:06,349 --> 00:42:03,900 all the rest of that so I'm curious 1110 00:42:07,930 --> 00:42:06,359 about if I can really kind of jump that 1111 00:42:11,630 --> 00:42:07,940 to the end 1112 00:42:14,930 --> 00:42:11,640 is what do you think about kind of this 1113 00:42:19,310 --> 00:42:14,940 right action non-dualism you said Ram 1114 00:42:21,770 --> 00:42:19,320 Das is one of your spiritual guideposts 1115 00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:21,780 you know have you read much of neem 1116 00:42:27,710 --> 00:42:24,960 curly Baba and you know I mean and some 1117 00:42:31,130 --> 00:42:27,720 of all ramdas stories are with neem 1118 00:42:34,450 --> 00:42:31,140 curly Baba so are you down the non-dual 1119 00:42:38,450 --> 00:42:34,460 right action yeah definitely 1120 00:42:40,790 --> 00:42:38,460 okay so yes and I so for me it was a lot 1121 00:42:44,329 --> 00:42:40,800 of um I mean and I wish this for the 1122 00:42:46,930 --> 00:42:44,339 world I do wish I wish like I wish our 1123 00:42:49,250 --> 00:42:46,940 society focused more on 1124 00:42:51,530 --> 00:42:49,260 self-actualization and like psychology 1125 00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:51,540 just like what do you know what do we 1126 00:42:55,609 --> 00:42:53,280 need to express ourselves to be happy 1127 00:42:57,650 --> 00:42:55,619 because I feel like um a lot of that is 1128 00:42:59,990 --> 00:42:57,660 what led me to this I don't know despair 1129 00:43:01,430 --> 00:43:00,000 point but yeah I got curious about 1130 00:43:04,250 --> 00:43:01,440 Consciousness I got curious about 1131 00:43:05,630 --> 00:43:04,260 spirituality and I found that these 1132 00:43:07,550 --> 00:43:05,640 Altered States Of Consciousness whether 1133 00:43:10,609 --> 00:43:07,560 it's hypnotic regression or psychedelics 1134 00:43:12,530 --> 00:43:10,619 or breath work or meditation 1135 00:43:14,930 --> 00:43:12,540 um they really help you get out of your 1136 00:43:17,690 --> 00:43:14,940 everyday head and out of these social 1137 00:43:19,250 --> 00:43:17,700 constructs these things these I should 1138 00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:19,260 be doing this I'm supposed to be this 1139 00:43:23,630 --> 00:43:21,359 this is my identity they get you out of 1140 00:43:25,250 --> 00:43:23,640 that space and I actually now think of 1141 00:43:27,290 --> 00:43:25,260 them too as these points where the 1142 00:43:29,329 --> 00:43:27,300 spiritual paranormal and personal 1143 00:43:30,710 --> 00:43:29,339 healing all converge because in those 1144 00:43:32,569 --> 00:43:30,720 experiences you can have all of them 1145 00:43:34,790 --> 00:43:32,579 right like I can see the future I can 1146 00:43:36,829 --> 00:43:34,800 see a past life 1147 00:43:38,329 --> 00:43:36,839 um I can it could you know heal me in 1148 00:43:41,870 --> 00:43:38,339 some way if it's a passive progression 1149 00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:41,880 or whatever or with LSD I had an Insight 1150 00:43:46,250 --> 00:43:43,920 um you know I asked a person a question 1151 00:43:48,349 --> 00:43:46,260 a personal development question I think 1152 00:43:50,990 --> 00:43:48,359 it was what's my biggest problem right 1153 00:43:53,450 --> 00:43:51,000 now and got a very very very clear 1154 00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:53,460 answer like a whole like not just a 1155 00:43:58,250 --> 00:43:56,160 cognitive like it was a I felt 1156 00:44:01,309 --> 00:43:58,260 that it was like you don't let yourself 1157 00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:01,319 be you like you you you know you trying 1158 00:44:07,370 --> 00:44:04,800 to project oh smartness you're trying to 1159 00:44:09,290 --> 00:44:07,380 project who you think everyone thinks 1160 00:44:11,030 --> 00:44:09,300 you're supposed to be but you've 1161 00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:11,040 forgotten like and I saw like images 1162 00:44:15,470 --> 00:44:13,200 from my childhood and you know like oh 1163 00:44:18,410 --> 00:44:15,480 you forgot this girl you forgot this 1164 00:44:20,210 --> 00:44:18,420 person and so I feel like these I mean 1165 00:44:23,089 --> 00:44:20,220 if I had yeah one wish is that everybody 1166 00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:23,099 would Embrace these Altered States or 1167 00:44:28,309 --> 00:44:25,920 just go get yeah readings like I invite 1168 00:44:29,990 --> 00:44:28,319 scientists in the book to go get a 1169 00:44:31,790 --> 00:44:30,000 reading I mean like what's the big deal 1170 00:44:33,950 --> 00:44:31,800 you know it's like 30 minutes maybe 1171 00:44:36,290 --> 00:44:33,960 it'll impress you maybe they won't but 1172 00:44:39,410 --> 00:44:36,300 to touch the mystical and spiritual 1173 00:44:41,210 --> 00:44:39,420 because I just truly think it's very 1174 00:44:43,130 --> 00:44:41,220 healing and enlightening and it really 1175 00:44:46,390 --> 00:44:43,140 just helped open your mind to other 1176 00:44:49,849 --> 00:44:46,400 experiences and most of the population 1177 00:44:52,130 --> 00:44:49,859 uh believes in this stuff and 1178 00:44:53,690 --> 00:44:52,140 um engages with it in some way and so it 1179 00:44:55,490 --> 00:44:53,700 could help put you know at least for 1180 00:44:57,770 --> 00:44:55,500 scientists like put us on even footing 1181 00:45:00,589 --> 00:44:57,780 but a little more anyway 1182 00:45:02,109 --> 00:45:00,599 okay uh the skeptico portion of the 1183 00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:02,119 interview begins now 1184 00:45:08,930 --> 00:45:05,040 so you mentioned the Russell Tower Cal 1185 00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:08,940 put off SRI stuff let me cover that a 1186 00:45:14,569 --> 00:45:11,520 lot on this show their MK Ultra guys 1187 00:45:17,390 --> 00:45:14,579 right I mean that program is under the 1188 00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:17,400 MK Ultra program ROM Doss when he's at 1189 00:45:23,210 --> 00:45:20,400 Harvard he's working in an MK Ultra 1190 00:45:25,309 --> 00:45:23,220 program MK Ultra is not pretty it's not 1191 00:45:26,809 --> 00:45:25,319 nice it's evil I mean they also have at 1192 00:45:30,050 --> 00:45:26,819 the same time programs going on with 1193 00:45:31,970 --> 00:45:30,060 demonology you know hey can we do they 1194 00:45:34,370 --> 00:45:31,980 have you know kind of this weaponizing 1195 00:45:37,130 --> 00:45:34,380 dissociative identity disorder right 1196 00:45:38,329 --> 00:45:37,140 like uh Whitley strieber we've 1197 00:45:39,950 --> 00:45:38,339 interviewed on the show you know let's 1198 00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:39,960 lock up these little nine-year-old kids 1199 00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:42,000 in in Faraday cages 1200 00:45:46,430 --> 00:45:44,160 and cut the throat of a bunny in front 1201 00:45:49,670 --> 00:45:46,440 of them and say do they do they 1202 00:45:52,730 --> 00:45:49,680 disassociate and can we then inhabit you 1203 00:45:55,069 --> 00:45:52,740 know take possession of that so 1204 00:45:59,390 --> 00:45:55,079 evil matters I wrote a book A couple of 1205 00:46:01,490 --> 00:45:59,400 years ago why evil matters and evil and 1206 00:46:03,890 --> 00:46:01,500 deception has to be a part of this 1207 00:46:05,050 --> 00:46:03,900 equation because it seems to be part of 1208 00:46:07,130 --> 00:46:05,060 this 1209 00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:07,140 collage that we're painting together 1210 00:46:10,910 --> 00:46:08,880 what do you think I just talked to 1211 00:46:12,710 --> 00:46:10,920 Bernardo castrip I think last week and 1212 00:46:16,010 --> 00:46:12,720 you know I had to put him 1213 00:46:18,589 --> 00:46:16,020 put them on the grill and he was like I 1214 00:46:20,410 --> 00:46:18,599 can't dismiss the definite reality that 1215 00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:20,420 seems to be of the Angels and Demons 1216 00:46:25,790 --> 00:46:24,240 seems to be real you know yeah you don't 1217 00:46:29,690 --> 00:46:25,800 really you don't really go there too 1218 00:46:31,849 --> 00:46:29,700 much no no I don't I try not to think 1219 00:46:33,410 --> 00:46:31,859 about that but I think that the um I 1220 00:46:36,230 --> 00:46:33,420 mean I do think the nature of the 1221 00:46:38,690 --> 00:46:36,240 universe the universe is is 1222 00:46:41,329 --> 00:46:38,700 um and I as actually in one of my 1223 00:46:44,030 --> 00:46:41,339 psychedelic trips I've experienced The 1224 00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:44,040 Duality of like the universe of like 1225 00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:46,800 light is dark and dark is light and 1226 00:46:53,109 --> 00:46:51,200 um and that so I I mean I recognize 1227 00:46:57,890 --> 00:46:53,119 that 1228 00:47:01,430 --> 00:46:57,900 and I haven't dug into it as much as 1229 00:47:03,650 --> 00:47:01,440 Stargate but I mean I do think 1230 00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:03,660 just to make a point just to make the 1231 00:47:08,809 --> 00:47:05,760 point again I won't pound on it Stargate 1232 00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:08,819 is a part of MK Ultra yeah yeah so right 1233 00:47:12,349 --> 00:47:10,800 yeah 1234 00:47:14,030 --> 00:47:12,359 um 1235 00:47:17,450 --> 00:47:14,040 what what 1236 00:47:21,589 --> 00:47:20,150 ly so a few years ago I interviewed this 1237 00:47:25,010 --> 00:47:21,599 woman and it really kind of changed the 1238 00:47:27,770 --> 00:47:25,020 show a bit her name is Annika Lucas and 1239 00:47:29,690 --> 00:47:27,780 I kind of connected her through the yoga 1240 00:47:32,030 --> 00:47:29,700 thing because I've been in into yoga for 1241 00:47:33,470 --> 00:47:32,040 a long time and she now runs this 1242 00:47:36,410 --> 00:47:33,480 amazing 1243 00:47:39,530 --> 00:47:36,420 program for women who are incarcerated 1244 00:47:41,569 --> 00:47:39,540 in New York and does yoga with them and 1245 00:47:44,930 --> 00:47:41,579 stuff like that 1246 00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:44,940 it's lovely Annika was sold into a 1247 00:47:51,050 --> 00:47:48,000 Satanic ritual cult in Belgium connected 1248 00:47:53,450 --> 00:47:51,060 to the Dutro cult that was you know 1249 00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:53,460 exposed in the newspapers and had all 1250 00:47:58,450 --> 00:47:55,680 these high-ranking officials she was 1251 00:48:01,910 --> 00:47:58,460 sold into a satanic cult six years old 1252 00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:01,920 raped hundreds and hundreds of times and 1253 00:48:05,569 --> 00:48:03,839 you know satanic like I asked her that 1254 00:48:09,109 --> 00:48:05,579 at one point she goes yes that's what 1255 00:48:11,450 --> 00:48:09,119 they are you know so if if we're going 1256 00:48:13,790 --> 00:48:11,460 to go there with all the rest of this 1257 00:48:17,809 --> 00:48:13,800 stuff one of the questions that's on the 1258 00:48:20,030 --> 00:48:17,819 table is why are people attempting to 1259 00:48:21,950 --> 00:48:20,040 tap into that energy but more 1260 00:48:23,890 --> 00:48:21,960 importantly from a kind of scientific 1261 00:48:27,290 --> 00:48:23,900 perspective 1262 00:48:31,370 --> 00:48:27,300 what what does the agency of these other 1263 00:48:32,690 --> 00:48:31,380 Realms mean and uh because I think it 1264 00:48:35,569 --> 00:48:32,700 brings into Focus some of the other 1265 00:48:38,270 --> 00:48:35,579 questions that you ask in terms of you 1266 00:48:40,790 --> 00:48:38,280 ask political questions at the end and 1267 00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:40,800 questions about our society and then I 1268 00:48:47,930 --> 00:48:42,960 think that naturally leads to 1269 00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:47,940 this is us this is what we did we did 1270 00:48:53,270 --> 00:48:50,640 this and we did this to other countries 1271 00:48:56,329 --> 00:48:53,280 but we did this to American citizens all 1272 00:48:58,250 --> 00:48:56,339 under the the umbrella of uh keep us 1273 00:49:00,829 --> 00:48:58,260 safe you know don't don't tell us 1274 00:49:04,130 --> 00:49:00,839 anymore you know but so I think this 1275 00:49:05,450 --> 00:49:04,140 stuff matters yeah I I was sort of 1276 00:49:07,910 --> 00:49:05,460 thinking about something similar the 1277 00:49:09,650 --> 00:49:07,920 other day about I mean I don't have an 1278 00:49:12,109 --> 00:49:09,660 answer I don't know that anyone does but 1279 00:49:13,849 --> 00:49:12,119 I think I think one part of it is is 1280 00:49:16,069 --> 00:49:13,859 control I mean humans love power and 1281 00:49:17,809 --> 00:49:16,079 controller because we but it all goes 1282 00:49:19,309 --> 00:49:17,819 back to fear because we're afraid of 1283 00:49:20,750 --> 00:49:19,319 dying and not having control you know 1284 00:49:23,329 --> 00:49:20,760 over our environments we can't protect 1285 00:49:24,950 --> 00:49:23,339 ourselves we can't we're vulnerable in a 1286 00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:24,960 lot of ways and I think that we try to 1287 00:49:28,849 --> 00:49:26,880 grasp and control for control and power 1288 00:49:32,569 --> 00:49:28,859 however we can 1289 00:49:34,849 --> 00:49:32,579 um but you know that and the the way to 1290 00:49:36,650 --> 00:49:34,859 counter that it I mean to some extent 1291 00:49:39,650 --> 00:49:36,660 you can't because we are just we are 1292 00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:39,660 vulnerable it is our nature 1293 00:49:44,210 --> 00:49:42,720 um but you know in Psychology they 1294 00:49:46,130 --> 00:49:44,220 that's what they talk about Child 1295 00:49:47,809 --> 00:49:46,140 Development it's it's about making them 1296 00:49:49,690 --> 00:49:47,819 feel safe and secure so that they don't 1297 00:49:52,550 --> 00:49:49,700 have to develop these other 1298 00:49:54,290 --> 00:49:52,560 mechanisms to to control their 1299 00:49:56,990 --> 00:49:54,300 environment or manipulate the people 1300 00:49:59,329 --> 00:49:57,000 around them or whatever it is 1301 00:50:02,329 --> 00:49:59,339 um so it's like in a perfect world maybe 1302 00:50:04,010 --> 00:50:02,339 if we all grew up uh you know feeling 1303 00:50:06,170 --> 00:50:04,020 safe and secure and we're reason in that 1304 00:50:08,930 --> 00:50:06,180 way but like do I think that's going to 1305 00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:08,940 be possible I'm not that much of an 1306 00:50:12,950 --> 00:50:11,040 idealist 1307 00:50:15,470 --> 00:50:12,960 the other thing I wonder what you think 1308 00:50:17,809 --> 00:50:15,480 about this because I think what the book 1309 00:50:20,510 --> 00:50:17,819 points to and we don't quite close the 1310 00:50:24,650 --> 00:50:20,520 loop but maybe you can do it here is 1311 00:50:26,809 --> 00:50:24,660 you start with pretty quickly realizing 1312 00:50:27,829 --> 00:50:26,819 it's all about love it's all about the 1313 00:50:34,490 --> 00:50:27,839 light 1314 00:50:36,829 --> 00:50:34,500 shine through for a ton of reasons and 1315 00:50:38,329 --> 00:50:36,839 we all get that you know but the light 1316 00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:38,339 is always there the light is always 1317 00:50:44,750 --> 00:50:41,520 shining and you kind of end the book on 1318 00:50:47,990 --> 00:50:44,760 that too but you feel the necessity to 1319 00:50:50,450 --> 00:50:48,000 go through this long journey I I'm right 1320 00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:50,460 there with you I'm on that Journey too 1321 00:50:56,990 --> 00:50:54,480 but maybe the answer is neem curly Baba 1322 00:50:58,970 --> 00:50:57,000 love everyone and tell the truth maybe 1323 00:51:00,589 --> 00:50:58,980 the answer is it doesn't matter what 1324 00:51:03,530 --> 00:51:00,599 those [\h__\h] do 1325 00:51:04,549 --> 00:51:03,540 it doesn't really matter we don't have 1326 00:51:10,849 --> 00:51:04,559 to make 1327 00:51:13,450 --> 00:51:10,859 it when they die when they face their 1328 00:51:16,549 --> 00:51:13,460 soul journey and they have to face 1329 00:51:18,349 --> 00:51:16,559 experiencing themselves what they did 1330 00:51:20,930 --> 00:51:18,359 and the impact of that we don't have to 1331 00:51:22,609 --> 00:51:20,940 we don't necessarily have to process all 1332 00:51:24,349 --> 00:51:22,619 that evil and that's why I think the 1333 00:51:26,510 --> 00:51:24,359 mistake is made but people are want to 1334 00:51:27,530 --> 00:51:26,520 Shy Away From Evil like we have to fix 1335 00:51:29,510 --> 00:51:27,540 something 1336 00:51:31,370 --> 00:51:29,520 we don't have to fix it we just have to 1337 00:51:33,230 --> 00:51:31,380 be the light and that's what I think 1338 00:51:34,910 --> 00:51:33,240 you're you're you say at the beginning 1339 00:51:38,809 --> 00:51:34,920 and then you say at the end 1340 00:51:41,210 --> 00:51:38,819 great yes yeah I did the practice that 1341 00:51:43,309 --> 00:51:41,220 right and I I feel like um I feel like 1342 00:51:44,930 --> 00:51:43,319 I'm still transitioning into that I 1343 00:51:48,530 --> 00:51:44,940 don't feel like I was that at all before 1344 00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:48,540 like holds me I don't think I I was very 1345 00:51:52,309 --> 00:51:50,160 conditioned you know from our culture 1346 00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,319 and I I didn't think about other people 1347 00:51:55,970 --> 00:51:54,480 in that way and I I think I talk about 1348 00:51:57,589 --> 00:51:55,980 the book I was very 1349 00:51:59,630 --> 00:51:57,599 um arrogant and condescending and 1350 00:52:01,130 --> 00:51:59,640 retaliatory and like I felt a lot of 1351 00:52:03,530 --> 00:52:01,140 emotional you know 1352 00:52:05,930 --> 00:52:03,540 um uh just upset when when somebody 1353 00:52:08,329 --> 00:52:05,940 didn't agree with me like had a 1354 00:52:09,770 --> 00:52:08,339 different opinion than me or whatnot and 1355 00:52:11,450 --> 00:52:09,780 now I know oh it's because I felt 1356 00:52:12,470 --> 00:52:11,460 whatever my value was threatened okay 1357 00:52:15,829 --> 00:52:12,480 great 1358 00:52:18,170 --> 00:52:15,839 um and that's why I cut material is so 1359 00:52:20,030 --> 00:52:18,180 much slack now or any everyone really is 1360 00:52:21,770 --> 00:52:20,040 I really just try to 1361 00:52:24,049 --> 00:52:21,780 it's like I 1362 00:52:26,089 --> 00:52:24,059 I it really is just letting go because 1363 00:52:27,530 --> 00:52:26,099 old me would have been like no you have 1364 00:52:29,030 --> 00:52:27,540 to see and I would have been angry and 1365 00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:29,040 I've been like you need to understand 1366 00:52:33,230 --> 00:52:30,720 you need to get caught up you need to 1367 00:52:34,730 --> 00:52:33,240 read the papers you need to but 1368 00:52:36,349 --> 00:52:34,740 um like I said I don't I just don't 1369 00:52:38,030 --> 00:52:36,359 think that that works 1370 00:52:40,609 --> 00:52:38,040 um with people knowing human psychology 1371 00:52:43,670 --> 00:52:40,619 like I just don't think that even works 1372 00:52:46,370 --> 00:52:43,680 and I think really the better way is to 1373 00:52:48,530 --> 00:52:46,380 let go surrender and to live and like 1374 00:52:52,609 --> 00:52:48,540 you said Shine Your Light and when they 1375 00:52:53,809 --> 00:52:52,619 see you living well they and then if you 1376 00:52:54,950 --> 00:52:53,819 know they're not they might ask 1377 00:52:56,809 --> 00:52:54,960 themselves 1378 00:52:59,390 --> 00:52:56,819 um what's the difference here what could 1379 00:53:01,130 --> 00:52:59,400 I what could I do differently so I 1380 00:53:03,650 --> 00:53:01,140 really do think all you can do is is 1381 00:53:04,690 --> 00:53:03,660 yeah live live your peace Live Your 1382 00:53:08,450 --> 00:53:04,700 Truth 1383 00:53:10,790 --> 00:53:08,460 awesome so Dr sabani where are we going 1384 00:53:14,030 --> 00:53:10,800 with this book Proof of spiritual 1385 00:53:17,630 --> 00:53:14,040 phenomena a neuroscientist discovery of 1386 00:53:22,670 --> 00:53:17,640 the ineffable Mysteries of the universe 1387 00:53:24,530 --> 00:53:22,680 you got a great publisher behind you and 1388 00:53:26,930 --> 00:53:24,540 you're rolling it out how's all that 1389 00:53:29,290 --> 00:53:26,940 going what do you hope to accomplish and 1390 00:53:31,910 --> 00:53:29,300 then what are you going to do next 1391 00:53:33,829 --> 00:53:31,920 gosh you know I used to I'm such a type 1392 00:53:35,710 --> 00:53:33,839 A I used to plan everything and I'm 1393 00:53:38,750 --> 00:53:35,720 trying a new thing where I don't do that 1394 00:53:40,069 --> 00:53:38,760 so I'm kind of just taking it day by day 1395 00:53:42,589 --> 00:53:40,079 and 1396 00:53:44,930 --> 00:53:42,599 um I mean I started uh thinking about 1397 00:53:46,910 --> 00:53:44,940 and like doing research for a second 1398 00:53:50,089 --> 00:53:46,920 book but um I don't know I'm just 1399 00:53:52,190 --> 00:53:50,099 enjoying this one and uh I'm still 1400 00:53:55,430 --> 00:53:52,200 exploring a lot of different Altered 1401 00:53:57,170 --> 00:53:55,440 States and um healing modalities so I'm 1402 00:53:57,970 --> 00:53:57,180 still on that Journey 1403 00:54:01,549 --> 00:53:57,980 um 1404 00:54:05,329 --> 00:54:01,559 uh oh oh I guess I can mention this I 1405 00:54:07,730 --> 00:54:05,339 haven't picked a date yet but I am 1406 00:54:09,710 --> 00:54:07,740 there's two things one is um a 1407 00:54:11,690 --> 00:54:09,720 collaborator and I are going to the 1408 00:54:13,309 --> 00:54:11,700 society for Neuroscience conference and 1409 00:54:15,349 --> 00:54:13,319 we're having a SAT which is like the 1410 00:54:17,150 --> 00:54:15,359 biggest conference in Neuroscience um we 1411 00:54:19,970 --> 00:54:17,160 have a little satellite event for 1412 00:54:21,950 --> 00:54:19,980 Science and spirituality but it's really 1413 00:54:24,290 --> 00:54:21,960 for any scientist who's ever experienced 1414 00:54:26,270 --> 00:54:24,300 anything that they couldn't explain 1415 00:54:28,190 --> 00:54:26,280 um to come join us and so that's one 1416 00:54:30,890 --> 00:54:28,200 thing and then next year we're going to 1417 00:54:32,329 --> 00:54:30,900 plan a retreat where I wanna you know in 1418 00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:32,339 the book I invite scientists to come 1419 00:54:36,589 --> 00:54:34,079 engage the mystical 1420 00:54:38,809 --> 00:54:36,599 um and so we want to organize a retreat 1421 00:54:41,089 --> 00:54:38,819 where we where we allow that to happen 1422 00:54:42,530 --> 00:54:41,099 like a one day we haven't figured out 1423 00:54:44,270 --> 00:54:42,540 the details yet there might be a one day 1424 00:54:46,370 --> 00:54:44,280 one in LA and another one at a retreat 1425 00:54:48,349 --> 00:54:46,380 center but where they can come and we 1426 00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:48,359 can we'll have we can get readings we 1427 00:54:51,589 --> 00:54:49,680 can present 1428 00:54:53,210 --> 00:54:51,599 um the evidence from the psychic 1429 00:54:55,309 --> 00:54:53,220 research and like a release succinct 1430 00:54:58,130 --> 00:54:55,319 format where we can talk about the 1431 00:54:59,630 --> 00:54:58,140 scientific Paradigm and experimental uh 1432 00:55:02,450 --> 00:54:59,640 formats like different ones going 1433 00:55:04,670 --> 00:55:02,460 forward like if you know materialism 1434 00:55:06,230 --> 00:55:04,680 isn't the whole story 1435 00:55:08,410 --> 00:55:06,240 um so yeah so those are some of the 1436 00:55:11,150 --> 00:55:08,420 things I'm working on and thinking about 1437 00:55:13,069 --> 00:55:11,160 excellent that's great stuff great stuff 1438 00:55:15,290 --> 00:55:13,079 congratulations again on the book it's 1439 00:55:17,870 --> 00:55:15,300 fantastic really encourage everyone to 1440 00:55:20,089 --> 00:55:17,880 check it out if you can do the audible 1441 00:55:22,490 --> 00:55:20,099 it's it's great it's great listen so 1442 00:55:24,410 --> 00:55:22,500 thank you thank you so much for joining 1443 00:55:26,750 --> 00:55:24,420 me today thank you so much for having me 1444 00:55:29,030 --> 00:55:26,760 it was a pleasure 1445 00:55:32,089 --> 00:55:29,040 thanks again to Dr sabani for joining me 1446 00:55:33,770 --> 00:55:32,099 today on skeptico the one question I tee 1447 00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:33,780 up from this interview and it kind of 1448 00:55:40,250 --> 00:55:35,520 relates to some of the recent episodes 1449 00:55:42,109 --> 00:55:40,260 of skeptico is what does it take to 1450 00:55:45,069 --> 00:55:42,119 change your mind 1451 00:55:48,410 --> 00:55:45,079 and what does it take in your experience 1452 00:55:50,750 --> 00:55:48,420 to change someone else's mind 1453 00:55:53,569 --> 00:55:50,760 let me know your thoughts love to hear 1454 00:55:57,109 --> 00:55:53,579 from you especially if you have that 1455 00:56:00,950 --> 00:55:57,119 next level level especially if you have 1456 00:56:03,230 --> 00:56:00,960 that level three sensibility in talking 1457 00:56:05,329 --> 00:56:03,240 about these topics I'd love for you to 1458 00:56:07,730 --> 00:56:05,339 join me on the skeptical Forum or track 1459 00:56:11,390 --> 00:56:07,740 me down otherwise that's going to do it 1460 00:56:14,450 --> 00:56:11,400 for today until next time take care and 1461 00:56:14,460 --> 00:56:19,720 foreign